When/while/as

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Diamondrg

#174557 Mon, 26 Dec 05 12:36 PM

Thabk you Jim and paco. The writer of the sentences has used (should I say "used" only?) these:

1- Whenchemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />>>

2- While>>

3- While>>

4- When>>

5- When>>

6- While

Jim, only 5 seems to be different. (= it seems as if only 5 is different. is this OK?)

>5- One Sunday afternoon a month later while I was sitting by my window, I noticed a person lowering himself from the roof to the fire escape of the opposite building.
>

Then, can you write a sentence in which one of them is possible but the other is not? (and make sure it is really hard. Wink [;)] )

Diamondrg

Joined on Fri, Dec 2 2005

Turkey

Contributing Member (1,043)

Wwwdotcom

#174585 Mon, 26 Dec 05 02:20 PM

"3- When I was watching TV, the electricity went off."

Grammatically, it sounds ok, but logically strange. You stopped watching TV when the electricity went off. Here, the interruption coincides with the end of a continuous action. In contrast, when I was eating breakfast, the telephone rang / my friend came to visit. The action could still continue.

In practical use, I would say, "I was watching TV until the electricity went off."

"4- While the electricity went off, I was studying Organic Chemistry."

Again, we have a logic problem. Electricity going off is usually instant, so revert to sentence 3's order "I was..." -> "While I was studying Organic Chemistry, the electricity went off". It is possible you continued to study with either a candle, flashlight, or maybe it was sunny outside and you sat near a window.

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Kyoto, but originally from Detroit

Full Member (336)

Diamondrg

#174602 Mon, 26 Dec 05 03:47 PM

so many things have been said so far but still I don't understand

1) whether "when" and "while" are the same thing when they are used in front of a sentence in the past continuous. ("When / While I was watching TV, the electricity went off." Is there a difference in meaning?)OK, Jim said "when I was studying" and "While I was studying" are different. I understand that. But can you say that the same difference holds for all the verbs used in this way?

2) why we use "while" in front of a sentence in the simple past. For example, "While I sat ..."

3) whether "as" is the same thing as "while" when used as a time clause initiator.

Diamondrg

Verbs, Clauses, Simple Past

Wwwdotcom

#174632 Mon, 26 Dec 05 05:17 PM

1) When the baseball player went up to bat, he struck out. / While the baseball player went up to bat, he struck out.

The second sentence doesn't make sense. He hasn't even gone to home plate, nor has the pitcher pitched to him. When describes the moment as a block of time, if you prefer moment to be only 1 slice of time, then when describes a block of time relative to some event. While prepares the reader/listener for a secondary action which happens WHILE the first action is still happening. When can go either way, maybe this would suit a mystery writer better who doesn't want to give too many clues. If you are trying to explain something, like in a recipe, my guess is to use while instead of when. [link]

"While baking the potatoes, heat the following ingredients in a medium saucepan until the cheese melts: celery soup, cup milk, almonds, lemon juice, chopped parsley, paprika, Tabasco or Cholula sauce and cheddar cheese"

If we changed it to "When", then are we to heat the ingredients during the time the potatoes are baking or is it just a reference to doing those 2 actions independent in time from one another?

2) Let's compare while and when again. A) While I sat, a car drove by my house. Maybe you were sitting for 15 minutes before you even heard a car outside. B) When I sat, a car drove by my house. As soon as you sat, the car drove by. You didn't wait 15 minutes. --> When I turned 16, my parents bought me a car.

3) As the runners approached the final lap, one of them tripped. While the runners approached the final lap, one of them tripped. I don't know how to explain this but the second one sounds strange. Maybe it's got to do with "as" working with each individual runner, but "while" seems to group all the runners together.

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CalifJim

#174648 Mon, 26 Dec 05 05:57 PM

Regarding "while" with simple past, e.g., "while I sat":

The English simple past does not have to express an event, i.e., does not have to be 'punctual'. This is one of the more difficult things for learners to grasp, especially if their native language distinguishes through inflections the perfective and imperfective aspects of the verb. The English simple past may express either of these aspects.

"while I sat" = "while I was in the sitting position"
"when I sat (down)" = "when (at the moment that) I [took / assumed] the sitting position"

"while I read" = "while I was performing the activity of reading"
"when I read (that so-and-so had died) = "when (at the moment that) I finished reading (that ...)"

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (17,790)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Verbs, Simple Past, Inflections

Diamondrg

#174665 Mon, 26 Dec 05 06:21 PM

CalifJim wrote:
Regarding "while" with simple past, e.g., "while I sat":

"while I read" = "while I was performing the activity of reading"
"when I read (that so-and-so had died) = "when (at the moment that) I finished reading (that ...)"

CJ

Dear Jim, you have compared "when" with "while" when used in front of a sentence in the simple past tense. And it is OK.

Now can you compare:

1) "While I sat" with "While I was sitting". Are they the same?

2) "When I read" with "When I was reading"

Let me give you a few examples:

1- a) I was watching TV when she came home.

b) I was watching TV while she came home. (if this is correct, does it mean "I

was watching TV while she was coming home"?)

2- a) The accident happened while they were going to school.

b) The accident happened when they were going to school. (if correct, does it mean "The accident happened while they were going to school.")

as you see the blue ones are the problematic ones for me.

Diamondrg

Tenses, Simple Past

Teo

#174813 Tue, 27 Dec 05 03:50 AM

1- a) I was watching TV when she came home. Correct!

b) I was watching TV while she came home. Incorrect!

2- a) The accident happened while they were going to school. Correct!

b) The accident happened when they were going to school. Correct!

When means at or during the time that ...

While means duing the time that ...

Teo

Joined on Tue, Sep 28 2004

Taiwan

Contributing Member (1,631)

Thank you very much for your reply.

CalifJim

#174818 Tue, 27 Dec 05 04:15 AM

1) "While I sat" with "While I was sitting". Are they the same?

2) "When I read" with "When I was reading" [Are they the same?]

1) Yes. "While I sat" is the same as "While I was sitting". (With "while", both simple past and past continuous can have imperfective aspect.)
2) No. "When I read (simple past)" is perfective in aspect. (The "when" causes us to choose this interpretation, at least as our first choice for an interpretation.) "When I was reading" is imperfective in aspect. (The continuous tense causes us to choose this interpretation, at least as our first choice.)

CalifJim

Tenses, Simple Past

CalifJim

#174819 Tue, 27 Dec 05 04:24 AM

1- a) I was watching TV when she came home.

b) I was watching TV while she came home. (if this is correct, does it mean "I

was watching TV while she was coming home"?)

2- a) The accident happened while they were going to school.

b) The accident happened when they were going to school. (if correct, does it mean "The accident happened while they were going to school.")

Teo has already given these.

In 1- b) once we see "while", we want to assign some meaning with imperfective aspect to the expression "came home". Since this expresses an event, not a state (like "sit"), our minds find it impossible to do. So it is hard to see a situation in which this sentence would make sense.

In 2- b) even though we see "when", we can't be sure the following words will indicate perfective or imperfective aspect. As it turns out, "were going to school" is imperfective. (That means that "while" could have been used instead, yes.)

CalifJim

Expressions

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