when/while/as

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Teo

#174839 Tue, 27 Dec 05 06:15 AM

http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhenWhileAs/cbwdr/Post.htm

Teo

Joined on Tue, Sep 28 2004

Taiwan

Contributing Member (1,607)

Thank you very much for your reply.

Diamondrg

#174991 Tue, 27 Dec 05 03:27 PM

From what you wrote, Jim, can we generalize and say that

1- after while only stative verbs like "sit" can be used in the past simple tense?

2- "The accident happened when they were going to school." is wrong and "when" had better be replaced with "while"? [if yes, still I'll have doubts about when to use (when //past continous)]

3- "when" can be used instead of "while" without any difference in meaning when used in front of a sentence in the past continuous? (you have said before that "when I was studying" and "while I was studying" are different. Well, does the same difference hold for "when I was reading" and "while I was reading"? How? can you give an example?

last but not least, what are perfective and imperfective aspects and how do they affect our understanding or interpretation of "The accident happened when they were going to school." or "The accident happened while they were going to school."?

Diamondrg

Joined on Fri, Dec 2 2005

Turkey

Contributing Member (1,037)

Verbs, Tenses, Stative verbs, Past simple

CalifJim

#175090 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:13 PM

after while only stative verbs like "sit" can be used in the past simple tense?

Yes, that sounds like a reasonable generalization.

Nevertheless, dynamic verbs might be used after "while", but they would then have to be interpretable in a non-event sort of way. This pattern occurs with activities:

While I washed the dishes, Mary cleaned the stove.
= While I was washing the dishes, Mary was cleaning the stove.
= While Mary cleaned the stove, I washed the dishes.
= While Mary was cleaning the stove, I was washing the dishes.

The activities proceeded in parallel. "to wash dishes" can be an event, but in these sentences, it is an activity, not an event.

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,496)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Verbs, Tenses, Stative verbs, Past simple, Dynamic verbs

CalifJim

#175093 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:21 PM

"The accident happened when they were going to school." is wrong and "when" had better be replaced with "while"?

I think of this as a case where "when" is possible, but "while" is better.
"when" may suggest that the "going to school" period of time was a period of many months during which they attended school, and that they no longer attend school now, much like,

The accident happened when they were still very small children (still in the habit of going to school).

"while" would more clearly suggest that the "going to school" was a one-time activity involving walking or driving to school on that particular occasion.

CJ

CalifJim

#175096 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:26 PM

"when" can be used instead of "while" without any difference in meaning when used in front of a sentence in the past continuous?

I would not think of this as a very trustworthy generalzation.
The choice between "when" and "while" will always result in some difference in meaning, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. See my previous post, where I mention "when they were going to school" and "while they were going to school".

CJ

CalifJim

Diamondrg

#175097 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:27 PM

CalifJim wrote:
"The accident happened when they were going to school." is wrong and "when" had better be replaced with "while"?

I think of this as a case where "when" is possible, but "while" is better.
"when" may suggest that the "going to school" period of time was a period of many months during which they attended school, and that they no longer attend school now, much like,

The accident happened when they were still very small children (still in the habit of going to school).

"while" would more clearly suggest that the "going to school" was a one-time activity involving walking or driving to school on that particular occasion.

CJ

so I understand that it kind of depends on the meaning one would like to convey and that they (when, while//past cont) are both acceptable but not interchangeable. Right?

Diamondrg

CalifJim

#175105 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:34 PM

what are perfective and imperfective aspects and how do they affect our understanding or interpretation of "The accident happened when they were going to school." or "The accident happened while they were going to school."?

By 'perfective aspect' I simply mean a view of the content of the sentence as an event.
By 'imperfective aspect' I mean a view that is not perfective aspect.

See previous posts for "when"/"while" going to school.

"happened" is the only perfective aspect.
"when they were going to school" is imperfective either as a one-time activity (less usual interpretation, I think) or imperfective as a habitual activity (my preferred interpretation). "while they were going to school" seems to me to be imperfective only in the "one-time activity" interpretation, although there may be contexts in which even "while they were going to school" could yield a habitual interpretation.

CJ

CalifJim

#175107 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:36 PM

it kind of depends on the meaning one would like to convey and that they (when, while//past cont) are both acceptable but not interchangeable. Right?

Right!
CJ

CalifJim

Diamondrg

#175123 Tue, 27 Dec 05 05:57 PM

CalifJim wrote:

PS. I'm late for work, so I'll see you on the Forums later.

Thank you, Jim. By the way, what is your job?

Now, to sum up,

I understand that

1- "when-while//past continuous":

"The accident happened when they were going to school." This can be interpreted in two ways: a) a one-time activity: the underlined part refers to a specific activity (but this interpretation is rare and in this sense "when" is almost the same as "while".)

b) a habitual activity: the underlined part refers to a past habitual activity. [this is the preferred (at least by you) interpretation and here "when"is not the same as "while"]

"The accident happened while they were going to school." This can be interpreted in one way.

The underlined part refers to a one-time activity. (And you added that it is really hard to find instances in which the underlined part is used as a habitual activity.)

and now I understand that. It took a while, but finally I got it. Really thank you.

2- When-While//simple past:

this is a bit problematic. I didn't understand the post below. What is the difference between these three: 1- "While I washed the dishes, Mary cleaned the stove." 2- While I was washing the dishes, Mary was cleaning the stove. (actually I know this, two spontaneous activities) 3- When I washed the dishes, Mary cleaned the stove. (I know this too, first I washed the dishes, then Mary cleaned the stove) What I don't understand is 1. and its difference with 2 and 3?

[quote user=CalifJim]

Diamondrg

Verbs, Difference between, Simple past, Dynamic verbs

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