when you have done

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Behnam110  #263455  Wed, 06 Sep 06 07:55 PM

what is the difference between these 2 sentences??

1.Can I borrow that book when you have finished it?
2.Can I borrow that book when you will have finished it?

thanks alot

  
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Buzel  #263483  Wed, 06 Sep 06 10:05 PM

Youmay not use any of Future tenses after "when". So, though the meaning is future, you must use the Present Perfect.

  
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Please, correct my writing in the entire post, not only in the part where i'm asking a question.
Goodman  #263501  Wed, 06 Sep 06 11:21 PM

I  think this generalization is not entirely accurate.  What if I say this?

Tom's flight left San Francisco International Airport at six o’clock this morning and I beleive he will have arrived Hong Kong when you go to bed.  Can you call him to make sure?

  
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CalifJim  #263526  Thu, 07 Sep 06 12:30 AM
Goodman,

Buzel said after "when", meaning in the when clause.  Your example has will, but not after "when", i.e., not in the when clause.

Nevertheless, Buzel's generalization is not entirely accurate, but for a different reason!
Do you know why?  (Think indirect questions.)  Smile [:)]

CJ
  
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Goodman  #263528  Thu, 07 Sep 06 12:50 AM

Ok how about:

Tom's flight left San Francisco International Airport at six o’clock this morning and I beleive when you go to bed, he will have arrived Hong Kong .  Can you call him to make sure?

Indirect question? um... does it have anything to do with "tag"?Tongue Tied [:S]

  
CalifJim  #263541  Thu, 07 Sep 06 01:32 AM
No.  You've placed will in the main clause again, not in the when clause, so it's OK.
The "wrong" version would have when you will go to bed, he ...

If that same clause is an indirect question, it's OK, however:

No one can guess when you will go to bed.

So the rule of not combining when with will in the same clause does not apply in indirect questions.

CJ

  
Marius Hancu  #263630  Thu, 07 Sep 06 06:54 AM
 Buzel wrote:
You may not use any of Future tenses after "when". So, though the meaning is future, you must use the Present Perfect.


This is not a mandatory rule. It's something which is
often done (thus, to me, optional), per Swan.

It's 
tense simplification where in subordinate clauses, the future is replaced by the present.
(Swan, Practical English Usage, tense simplification in subordinate clauses).

Also:

----
Present perfect tenses can be used to express the idea of completion
I'll tell you when I've finished.

Swan, p. 584
-------


See examples of will after when in subordinates:

  • Article available with TimesSelect subscription or for purchase TURMOIL IN THE MIDEAST: THE ISRAELIS; Angry Tears And Empathy On the Web

    ... [The] day will come when I will get used to sleeping there ...View free preview

    July 23, 2006 - By DINA KRAFT (NYT) - Technology - News - 733 words
  • Article available with TimesSelect subscription or for purchase In New Problem for Palestinians, Banks Reject Transfers

    ... Idea [I] have no idea when I will get paid again, and ...View free preview

    May 4, 2006 - By GREG MYRE (NYT) - World - News - 1160 words

  • Article available with TimesSelect subscription or for purchase Across the U.S., Protests for Immigrants Draw Thousands

    ... I don't know when I will be able to see her ...View free preview

  • Yale Law School - The Avalon Project: Hamas Covenant 1988
    When they will have digested
    the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the
    ...


      
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    Marius Hancu  #263634  Thu, 07 Sep 06 07:19 AM
    Here's an indirect question with when and when, a case mentioned by CJ:
    --------
    From the UK Parliament:

    Mr. Cartwright : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home
    Department
    , pursuant to his answer of 13 June, Official Report,
    columns 367 -8, to the hon. Member for Woolwich, when he will have
    finished
    considering the report of the efficiency scrutiny of the
    section 11 grant scheme under the Local Government Act 1986 ; and when
    he will be publishing
    the report.


    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm198889/cmhansrd/1989-07-07/Writtens-1.html
    --------


      
    CalifJim  #263647  Thu, 07 Sep 06 08:49 AM
    This is not a mandatory rule. It's something which is often done (thus, to me, optional), per Swan.


    Which part is not mandatory?  I may have misunderstood, but I'm assuming the rule you are referring to is: will cannot be used in a when clause where when is an adverbial conjunction.  I don't believe there's anything that's not mandatory about it.  Do you have an example?

    (My comments below are to the effect that the examples are not cases where the rule applies.)

    [The] day will come when I will get used to sleeping there   when is a relative pronoun with antecedent day, not an adverbial conjunction.

    no idea when I will get paid   when in an indirect question, not an adverbial conjunction.  When will I get paid?

    I don't know when I will be able to see her  when in an indirect question, not an adverbial conjunction.  When will I be able to see her?

    These are not

    When I (*will) get used to sleeping there, the day will come.
    When I (*will) get paid, I have no idea.
    When I [am / (*will be)] able to see her, I don't know.


    in the intended readings, i.e., the last two are not to be read as fronted object constructions.

    CJ
      
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