which and that

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Anonymous

#326605 Fri, 09 Feb 07 01:19 AM

Hi there,

1. Note from these examples, that in statements when the preposition is placed at the end of the clause, we can use that instead of who or which or we can omit the relative pronoun completely.

I don't understand the function of the underlined that in this sentence and what 'that' refers to? Can you give examples to explain this?

2. The pipeline would also bring financial benefit to Pakistan, which it would cross on route from Iran, earning the Pakistani government millions of dollars in transit fee.

I don't know what 'which' and 'it' refer to in this sentence. What kind of sentence pattern is it?

simon

Anonymous

Clauses, Nouns, Prepositions, Pronouns, Relative pronouns

Pioussoul

#326680 Fri, 09 Feb 07 05:00 AM

Anonymous wrote:

Hi there,

1. Note from these examples, that in statements when the preposition is placed at the end of the clause, we can use that instead of who or which or we can omit the relative pronoun completely.

I don't understand the function of the underlined that in this sentence and what 'that' refers to? Can you give examples to explain this?

This is the house (that/which) I was born into.

Tom is the person (that/whom) you talked to loudly in public yesterday.

I think the above two samples are what you want.

Anonymous wrote:

2. The pipeline would also bring financial benefit to Pakistan, which it would cross on route from Iran, earning the Pakistani government millions of dollars in transit fee.

I don't know what 'which' and 'it' refer to in this sentence. What kind of sentence pattern is it?

simon

Here, which refers to Pakistan, and it the pipeline; hopefully, my shot is to the target.

Pioussoul

Joined on Mon, Jan 22 2007

nowhere and everywhere

Full Member (246)

I have been captivated by and lost in a fool's paradise for too long to see the truth.

Clauses, Nouns, Prepositions, Pronouns, Relative pronouns, Whom

CalifJim

#326690 Fri, 09 Feb 07 05:26 AM

that does not refer to anything. It's a complementizer. It serves to introduce a subordinate clause.

Note from these examples, that in statements when the preposition is placed at the end of the clause, we can use 'that' instead of 'who' or 'which' or we can omit the relative pronoun completely.

Note that we can use 'that' instead of 'who' or 'which' ...

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (16,975)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Clauses, Nouns, Prepositions, Pronouns, Relative pronouns

Pioussoul

#326699 Fri, 09 Feb 07 05:50 AM

CalifJim wrote:
that does not refer to anything. It's a complementizer. It serves to introduce a subordinate clause.

CJ

Hi, CJ, I'm much confused by what you wrote above in bold. Would you cite a few samples to further explain what you mean? Thanks.

Pioussoul

Clauses

CalifJim

#326716 Fri, 09 Feb 07 06:07 AM

A word used to introduce a clause complement of a verb is called a complementizer. Complements are underlined below.

I said the word.
I said that Jane would be late today.

Many, many verbs take as a complement a clause introduced by the complementizer that.

note that, see that, hear that, find that, observe that, believe that, deny that, decide that, ...

CJ

CalifJim

Clauses, Verbs

Pioussoul

#326748 Fri, 09 Feb 07 09:14 AM

CalifJim wrote:
A word used to introduce a clause complement of a verb is called a complementizer. Complements are underlined below.

I said the word.
I said that Jane would be late today.

CJ

Thanks for the explantion, CJ, but my confusion is still existent in that the first question of this thread starter quoted below and your samples don't seem to match very well.

First, neither of your samples end with a preposition. Second, the that in your sample is not interchangeable with who or which, is it?

I'm really confused--does my knowledge of grammar fool me, or modern grammar has changed so frantically that I have to relearn it?

Anonymous wrote:

1. Note from these examples, that in statements when the preposition is placed at the end of the clause, we can use that instead of who or which or we can omit the relative pronoun completely.

I don't understand the function of the underlined that in this sentence and what 'that' refers to? Can you give examples to explain this?

simon

Pioussoul

Clauses, Grammar, Nouns, Prepositions, Pronouns, Relative pronouns, Sample, Verbs

CalifJim

#326768 Fri, 09 Feb 07 09:58 AM

First of all, the information within the sample sentence is not relevant to the question being asked. It's just a sentence taken out of some grammar book so it mentions grammatical things like prepositions. The sentence could have been something completely different, and yet the question could be the same, like:

Note from the previous discussion that when the filter is placed below the machine instead of above it, we are using it incorrectly. What is the function of the underlined word?

This question asks nothing about the filter or the machine. It asks only about the underlined word. It would make no sense for the answer to contain examples about the filter or the machine.
_______________

There are several different that's in English.

Demonstrative that: That is a pen. That pen is black.
Complementizer that: It is important that you take a break. I decided that I would take a break.
Relative pronoun that: The pen that is on the desk does not write well.

Complementizer that is not replaceable by which or who. Only relative pronoun that has that function.

Maybe that is causing some of your confusion?

CJ

CalifJim

Grammar, Nouns, Prepositions, Pronouns, Relative pronouns, Sample

Pioussoul

#326769 Fri, 09 Feb 07 10:06 AM

CalifJim wrote:

Complementizer that is not replaceable by which or who. Only relative pronoun that has that function.

Maybe that is causing some of your confusion?
CJ

Do you mean that your posts on this thread do not specifically aim at the first question of the starter?

If yes, then I won't feel confused any more.

Pioussoul

Nouns, Pronouns, Relative pronouns

Inchoateknowledge

#326770 Fri, 09 Feb 07 10:08 AM

The pipeline would also bring financial benefit to Pakistan, which it would cross en route from Iran, earning the Pakistani government millions of dollars in transit fee.

which = relative pronoun = Pakistan -- anaphoric reference; the blue part is the non-restrictive relative clause that modifies Pakistan.

it = refers back to pipeline

en route, and not on route

Inchoateknowledge