, which or , it

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Liveinjapan

#332497 Fri, 23 Feb 07 03:31 PM

Hi, please help me out.

'Fortunately we had a map, without which we would have got lost.'

Can I use it instead of which in this case. like

'Fortunately we had a map, without it we would have got lost.'

If there're two sentences like below, it's okay to use it?

'Fortunately we had a map. And without it we would have got lost.'

Liveinjapan

Joined on Sun, Feb 4 2007

Osaka, Japan

Contributing Member (1,762)

Please feel free to correct any words I wrote.LiJ

Bennyman

#332498 Fri, 23 Feb 07 03:40 PM

'Fortunately we had a map, without it we would have been lost.'

Bennyman

Joined on Tue, Feb 8 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark

New Member (29)

Defendi rem publicam adulescens, non deseram senex.

Liveinjapan

#332499 Fri, 23 Feb 07 03:56 PM

Hi, Bennyman .

I think I can use 'it' instead of 'which'.

Do you mean using 'which' is grammatically wrong?

I found this line in the grammar book by Cambridge.

You mean both are fine?

Do you mean when using 'it', you must say 'been lost' (not 'got lost')?

Liveinjapan

Grammar

Grammar Geek

#332502 Fri, 23 Feb 07 04:08 PM

1) "we would have got lost" should be either "we would have been lost" or "we would have gotten lost." (American. Perhaps in BrE "have got" is okay? I get confused on this one.)

2) With the "which" you are referring back to the map, and this keeps it as a dependent clause. If you want to replace which with it, then you will have two complete sentences. That's fine, but you can no longer use a comma to separate them, or you will have a comma splice. (Joining two complete sentences with a comma.)

Fortuatenly, we had a map. Without it, we would have been lost. (You can use the "And" as you have above, but that's frowned on by some people as a way to start a sentence. I think, depending on the style of writing, that it's okay to start with an And.)

Grammar Geek

Joined on Tue, Jan 10 2006

Pennsylvania, USA

Veteran Member (16,064)

Barbara, who answers in American English.

Clauses, Commas

Liveinjapan

#332505 Fri, 23 Feb 07 04:23 PM

Thanks, Grammar Geek!

So, used a comma splice, that would be okay:

'Fortunately we had a map,(<-- a comma splice) without it we would have gotten (/ been) lost.

Is that what you mean?

I understand what you said about how to separate the sentence into complete two ones.

Liveinjapan

Grammar, Commas

Zeppe

#332507 Fri, 23 Feb 07 04:37 PM

the phrase "Fortunately we had a map, without which we would have been lost" sounds actually a little harsh, but it should be ok, shouldn't it?
Probably that's due to the presence of "Fortunately"; it would sound better

"we had a map without which we would have been lost",

or, otherwise, if you want to point out that you were lucky, something like

"Fortunately we had a map: without it we would have been lost".

And I have another question: what about

"we had a map that we would have been lost without"

wrong? to avoid?

Zeppe

Joined on Tue, Feb 20 2007

London (but I'm Italian)

New Member (50)

Everything ends badly. Otherwise it wouldn't end.

Grammar Geek

#332517 Fri, 23 Feb 07 05:18 PM

No, a comma splice is an error. I should have said it wrongly joins two sentences with a comma

Grammar Geek

Commas

Liveinjapan

#332522 Fri, 23 Feb 07 05:24 PM

GG, Thank you very much.

I understand perfectly!

What a wonderful day!

Best regards.

Liveinjapan

Regards

Kooyeen

#332523 Fri, 23 Feb 07 05:26 PM

Hi everyone,
I just thought of another solution,
"Fortunately we had a map, without that (map) we would have gotten lost!"

Would it be good as well? Smile [:)]

Kooyeen

Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005

Italy

Senior Member (4,062)

If you don't have a sense of humor already, it's about time you buy one.

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