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Hoa Thai  #450159  Thu, 06 Dec 07 03:08 AM

Hi,

It is a very interesting question when we equate audience/team/class/group to be similar in the context related to people. However, a subtle difference exists among these words (I think).

The words such as audience and team are dedicated to human; while class/group could also be used for other species. Besides, the latter could carry different meaning, for example, a class could mean a teaching period; therefore, using who for them would not be precise and requires us to decipher the meaning from extra context. Such extra requirement of the brain would go against the principle of naturalness (I think!)

Best wishes,
Hoa Thai

  
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Kooyeen  #450462  Thu, 06 Dec 07 09:28 PM
Thanks Jim, I understand, even though it seems kind of complicated to me.
Also because I noticed this strange thing:
 CalifJim wrote:

The discussion above covers most of this.  which is more often used than who in AmE, and what the team, audience, etc. is/are actually doing may influence the choice, but rewording to avoid the problem is not a bad idea either, where possible.

The team/staff/committee, who were requested to walk into the auditorium one by one, were proud of the awards they received.

You used plural verbs with collective nouns... How come? I thought in American English there were only used with singular verbs. I remember reading in another forum that Americans would never (or "very rarely") say that a class are doing something. The class is waiting for the teacher, the class in playing, the team is not ready, etc.

As a rule of thumb, I would use "which" + singular verb to refer to collective nouns in non-restricitve clauses, and I would only use "who" + plural verb when I also mention the members.
- The audience, which didn't look much interested,...
- The team of engineers, who are waiting for our instructions,...

What do you think?
Thanks Smile [:)]

  
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Goodman  #450479  Thu, 06 Dec 07 10:36 PM

Hi Kooyen,

Speaking from experience, there is really no easy and clear way to explain to the learners why collective noun can be viewed as singular in some context and plural in the others. As I’ve emphasized many times before. Context dictates how we should select the verbs and how words are used. I’ve found the best way to learn natural English is to listen to narrators of education programs on TV.  Programs like Discovery and History Channels are broadcast in countries all over the free world. These programs have been proven instrumentally helpful to me.  Here is something to favour on…..

The Collective Noun

Recognize a collective noun when you see one.

Nouns name people, places, and things. Collective nouns, a special class, name groups [things] composed of members [usually people]. Check out the chart below:

army
audience
board
cabinet
class
committee
company
corporation
council
department
faculty
family
firm
group
jury
majority
minority
navy
public
school
senate
society
team
troupe

Use correct verbs and pronouns with collective nouns.

Each noun from the list above is a single thing. That thing, however, is made up of more than one person. You cannot have a committee, team, or family of one; you need at least two people who compose the unit.

Because people behave as both herd animals and solitary creatures, collective nouns can be either singular or plural, depending on context. In writing, this double status often causes agreement errors. How do you tell if a collective noun is singular or plural? What verbs and pronouns do you use with the collective noun?

Here is the key: Imagine a flock of pigeons pecking at birdseed on the ground. Suddenly, a cat races out of the bushes. What do the pigeons do? They fly off as a unit in an attempt to escape the predator, wheeling through the sky in the same direction.

People often behave in the same manner, doing one thing in unison with the other members of their group. When these people are part of a collective noun, that noun becomes singular and requires singular verbs and pronouns. As you read the following examples, notice that all members of the collective noun are doing the same thing at the same time:

Every afternoon the baseball team follows its coach out to the hot field for practice.

Team = singular; follows = a singular verb; its = a singular pronoun. All members of the team arrive at the same place at the same time.

Today, Dr. Ribley's class takes its first 100-item exam.

Class = singular; takes = a singular verb; its = a singular pronoun. All members of the class are testing at the same time.

The jury agrees that the state prosecutors did not provide enough evidence, so its verdict is not guilty.

Jury = singular; agrees = a singular verb; its = a singular pronoun. All members of the jury are thinking the same way.

After the three-hour practice under the brutal sun, the team shower, change into their street clothes, and head to their air-conditioned homes.

Team = plural; shower, change, head = plural verbs; their = a plural pronoun. The teammates are dressing into their individual outfits and leaving in different directions for their individual homes.

After the long exam, the class start their research papers on famous mathematicians.

Class = plural; start = a plural verb; their = a plural pronoun. The students are beginning their own research papers—in different places, at different times, on different mathematicians.

The jury disagree about the guilt of the accused and have told the judge that they are hopelessly deadlocked.

Jury = plural; disagree, have told = plural verbs; they = a plural pronoun. Not everyone on the jury is thinking the same way.

Whenever you cannot decide if a collective noun is singular or plural, exercise your options as a writer. You have two ways that you can compose the sentence without causing an agreement error: 1) insert the word members after the collective noun [jury members, committee members, board members], or 2) use an entirely different word [players instead of team, students instead of class, soldiers instead of army]. Then you can use plural verbs and pronouns without worrying about making mistakes or sounding unnatural.

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