Which words should I use?

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Marius Hancu

#374557 Sun, 03 Jun 07 08:24 PM

was buying

Marius Hancu

Joined on Wed, Apr 26 2006

Montreal, Canada

Veteran Member (11,673)

Kooyeen

#374619 Mon, 04 Jun 07 12:32 AM

Marius Hancu wrote:
was buying

Hi,
I don't think "was buying" makes sense. I was told to avoid "the first time" + "present continuous" in any case (or in most cases, at least). I had a long chat with a native speaker, and she kept saying that sentences like "This is the first time I'm reading a novel in English" were completely unacceptable, odd and unnatural (but it seems sometimes natives use them anyway. I don't know why...)
So now I'm afraid to say something like that. Smile [:)]

Kooyeen

Joined on Thu, Dec 22 2005

Italy

Senior Member (3,962)

If you don't have a sense of humor already, it's about time you buy one.

Present continuous

Yoong Liat

#374701 Mon, 04 Jun 07 05:26 AM

Yankee wrote:

In Kooyeen's sentence "That was the first time I bought fish there", the simple past tense is just fine. I don't think even the most prescriptive grammarian would have a problem with that sentence. On the contrary, without some kind of clear justification for the past perfect (such as at least adding the word 'ever'), I think a prescriptive grammarian would be more likely to have a problem with "That was the first time I had bought fish there."

I'm quoting from 'Basic English Usage' by Michael Swan.

1. We use a present perfect tense after the following experssions:
This/that/it is the first/second/third/fourth/etc.
This/that/it is the only ...
This/that/it is the best/worst/finest/most interesting/etc.
Examples:
This is the first time (that) I've heard her sing.
(NOT ... That I hear her sing.)
That's the third time you've asked me that question.
(NOT ... the third time you ask me ... )
It's the most interesting book that I've ever read.

2. When we talk about the past, we use a past perfect tense after the same expressons.
It was the third time that he had been in love that year.
(NOT ... the third time he was ... )

Yoong Liat

Joined on Mon, Sep 4 2006

Singapore

Veteran Member (5,989)

Yoong Liat

Tenses, Past perfect, Simple past, Present perfect, Past tenses, Quoting

Kooyeen

#374913 Mon, 04 Jun 07 03:16 PM

Yoong Liat wrote:

2. When we talk about the past, we use a past perfect tense after the same expressons.
It was the third time that he had been in love that year.
(NOT ... the third time he was ... )

Whoa! I missed that part (I once read the part about the present perfect in Practical English Usage, but I didn't notice the part you quoted).
I think it's another of Swan's "bad things" you can find in its gramar book. I once thought Swan's grammar was a good one, then I started to read it and I changed my mind. If I hadn't missed that part, maybe I would have changed my mind faster, LOL. Smile [:)]

Or maybe that's really true for British English... Thinking [*-)]

Kooyeen

Grammar, Tenses, Past perfect, British English, Present perfect

Yoong Liat

#374965 Mon, 04 Jun 07 05:08 PM

Or maybe that's really true for British English... Thinking [*-)]

Please note that Michael Swan and other grammarians state what I posted earlier.

Yoong Liat

Grammar, British English, Present perfect

Kooyeen

#375018 Mon, 04 Jun 07 07:10 PM

Yoong Liat wrote:
Please note that Michael Swan and other grammarians state what I posted earlier.

When you mentioned "grammarians" and "prescribe" earlier in this thread, I thought you needed a prescriptive answer, so I said maybe the past perfect is the preferred "prescriptive" verb to choose.

But the fact is that Practical English Usage by Swan is supposed to be a descriptive grammar (see the introduction), so it's strange that he says only the past perfect is ok. And that's why I said "unless that's true for British English"... If in British English the simple past instead of the past perfect is not used, then Swan is really describing English (but only British English).

I think we need a Brit (like Nona) now, if we really want to know what's acceptable in the UK. Smile [:)]

Kooyeen

Grammar, Verbs, Past perfect, British English, Simple past

Yoong Liat

#375020 Mon, 04 Jun 07 07:15 PM

Hi Kooyeen

All the grammar and English usage books I have read discuss BrE. I've never read one on AmE because BrE is used in Singapore.

Best wishes

Yoong Liat

Grammar

Yankee

#375043 Mon, 04 Jun 07 08:00 PM

Mother bargained with the stallholder at the market as this was the first time she was buying / had been buying / had bought fish from him.

Hi Yoong Liat

Your sentence differs from Kooyeen's sentences in that it also includes "Mother bargained".

I guess an argument can be made for both the past continuous and the past perfect (but I don't like the past perfect continuous).

You might look at 'bargaining about the price' as part of the larger/longer process of 'buying fish' that day (i.e. a shorter past activity in the middle of a longer past activity). Here is an example of what I mean by shorter/longer past activities:
He wrote me a letter while he was vacationing in the Bahamas.

Yankee

Joined on Sat, Apr 15 2006

Connecticut, USA

Senior Member (4,156)

Amy "You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain

Past perfect

Marius Hancu

#375050 Mon, 04 Jun 07 08:07 PM

Kooyeen wrote:
Marius Hancu wrote:
was buying

Hi,
I don't think "was buying" makes sense. I was told to avoid "the first time" + "present continuous" in any case (or in most cases, at least). I had a long chat with a native speaker, and she kept saying that sentences like "This is the first time I'm reading a novel in English" were completely unacceptable, odd and unnatural (but it seems sometimes natives use them anyway. I don't know why...)

So now I'm afraid to say something like that.

I asked someone to post on another site, which specializes on grammar, where Richard Firsten, a grammarian and an author (check his books at Amazon), one of the moderators of that site, was kind enough to reply it. This is his reply:
------------
I would use was buying. This was the action that was in progress at the time she bargained with the fishmonger, so the past progressive is the appropriate time to use.

Richard

http://thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/340600179/m/9891047044
-------------
which to me was to be expected.

Marius Hancu

Grammar, Present continuous

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