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Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

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KatieBeth  #189181  Thu, 26 Jan 06 11:56 PM

I've read through many of the previous posts on this subject (such as this one). It is like reading a foreign language seeing "object of the preposition" and "nominative vs. objective case." Would you please indulge a native speaker who was taught through example and thus never dissected sentences? I would be very grateful!

In a letter I am writing, the following sentence appears:

However, there are many things that I am unclear about and I do not know who to ask.

Microsoft is telling me to change the who to whom. I don't put much trust in Microsoft's success rates at grammar checking. Stick out tongue [:P] I know a correct phrase is "Whom should I ask?" but I don't understand why that is correct. I know it was answered in the thread I linked above, but I frankly don't understand what the difference is.

To be clear, I do want to know the actual rule and not the every day verbal usage. Is there a way I can understand this without an entire re-do of basic English?

I look forward to your responses,
Katie Beth

  
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Katie Beth
MrPedantic  #189197  Fri, 27 Jan 06 01:05 AM

Hello Katie

Rule: "whom" is to "him" as "who" is to "he":

1. Who likes grammar? He likes grammar.

2. Whom does she prefer? She prefers him.

Now take your sentence:

3. I don't know who(m) to ask.

(I've put the "m" in brackets, to show that we haven't yet decided whether it should be "who" or "whom".)

The underlined part in #3 is the question, i.e. the thing you don't know the answer to:

4. Who(m) should I ask?

To which the answer might be:

5. You should ask him.

If we look at the "rule" above, we see "whom" = "him". So in your sentence, since you have "him" in the answer, you can have "whom" in the question, i.e.

6. I don't know whom to ask.

That said...I never use "whom" myself, in a question.

MrP

  
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Anonymous  #189204  Fri, 27 Jan 06 01:21 AM
 KatieBeth wrote:

To be clear, I do want to know the actual rule and not the every day verbal usage. Is there a way I can understand this without an entire re-do of basic English?

I look forward to your responses,
Katie Beth

As Microsoft will tell you, use "who" or "whoever" as the subject in a sentence. Use "whom" or "whomever" as an object or following a preposition.

  
KatieBeth  #189837  Sat, 28 Jan 06 07:26 AM

Thank you! I can handle that! LOL!

Does this "who=he, whom=him" rule have exceptions or is this a pretty good bet for the future?

I think I am a rarity in that whom was a frequent word in my household growing up. Smile [:)]

I really appreciate the patience and help!

  
MrPedantic  #189921  Sat, 28 Jan 06 01:02 PM

Hello KatieBeth

"Whom" also relates to equivalents of "him":

1. Whom did you ask? — I asked her.

2. By whom was the payment authorized? — By me, I'm afraid.

etc.

The "rule" is a good bet – except that most people don't apply it, as you noted in your original post.

MrP

  
pieanne  #189953  Sat, 28 Jan 06 02:57 PM
 MrPedantic wrote:

2. By whom was the payment authorized? — By me, I'm afraid.

 Tongue Tied [:S] I've been taught not to start a question with a preposition... Can't we say "Whom was the payment authorized by?" ? Or doesn't anybody speak like that anymore? [double  Tongue Tied [:S] ]

  
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MrPedantic  #189985  Sat, 28 Jan 06 04:08 PM

I'm not sure anyone speaks like people speak in our examples...

But I think in this instance, the financial controller (a fairly tetchy and pedantic fellow) fronted "By whom" because his main concern was to discover the identity of the payment-authorizing miscreant. And the hapless bought ledger clerk fronted "by me" in tremulous response.

In less fraught circumstances, the FC might simply have said, "Who was the payment authorized by?".

You can say "Whom was the payment authorized by?", but (in spoken BrE, at least) it's likely to grate on your listener's ear a little.

MrP

  
KatieBeth  #190075  Sat, 28 Jan 06 06:20 PM

Thank you so much! I've changed my letter (score 1 for Microsoft) and will remember this for the future!

I appreciate it (yet again).

  
pieanne  #190082  Sat, 28 Jan 06 06:26 PM
 MrPedantic wrote:

You can say "Whom was the payment authorized by?", but (in spoken BrE, at least) it's likely to grate on your listener's ear a little.

MrP

What about the him/he rule, then  Tongue Tied [:S] ?

From now on, I'll never authorize any payment.

  
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