who/that

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Teo  #327004  Fri, 09 Feb 07 06:43 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv313.shtml

1. Who is the woman wearing dark glasses that arrived five minutes ago?

2. Who is the woman wearing dark glasses who arrived five minutes ago?

#1 is correct. Is #2 also acceptable?

  
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Thank you very much for your reply.
Ruslana  #327013  Fri, 09 Feb 07 07:07 PM

Yes. They both are okay.

  
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Kooyeen  #327024  Fri, 09 Feb 07 07:43 PM
Hi,

That's the guy who told me about you.
That's the guy that told me about you.

They are both ok, but I think it would be interesting to know if there is more a tendency to use one form instead of the other... Even if they are ok, I've always wondered what's the tendency, who or that? I guess "who" might be a little more frequent...
  
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Pioussoul  #327036  Fri, 09 Feb 07 08:19 PM
 Teo wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv313.shtml

1. Who is the woman wearing dark glasses that arrived five minutes ago?

2. Who is the woman wearing dark glasses who arrived five minutes ago?

#1 is correct. Is #2 also acceptable?

In terms of traditional grammar, sentence 1 is more desirable, but 2 is also acceptable. The following are more parallel samples:

3. Who was the girl who/that came here yesterday?

4. Who is there who/that can help him.

Nevertheless, we'd better avoid two whos joining together without any words in between.

5. Who who/that has conscience will do such a thing.

  
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Anonymous  #327041  Fri, 09 Feb 07 08:29 PM

 Pioussoul wrote:

5. Who who/that has conscience will do such a thing.

Maybe "He who has coscience will do such a thing"  would work better. (not "He that has ...")

  
Pioussoul  #327053  Fri, 09 Feb 07 09:26 PM
 Anonymous wrote:

 Pioussoul wrote:

5. Who who/that has conscience will do such a thing.

Maybe "He who has coscience will do such a thing"  would work better. (not "He that has ...")

Yes, syntactically, it looks better, but what about semantically? Is it synonymous to the base sentence? 

  
CalifJim  #327063  Fri, 09 Feb 07 10:05 PM
who that has ... is not English.  (And, of course, who who has ... isn't either.)
We use he who has ...  or whoever has ... instead.

CJ

  
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Pioussoul  #327065  Fri, 09 Feb 07 10:17 PM

 CalifJim wrote:
who that has ... is not English.  (And, of course, who who has ... isn't either.)
We use he who has ...  or whoever has ... instead.CJ

I'm sorry, CJ, but I beg to differ.

When you say some line is not English, what is your criteria, and what is your justification?

  
CalifJim  #327074  Fri, 09 Feb 07 10:47 PM
I have spoken English all my life.  I have read millions of words of English in thousands of books, newspapers, and magazines.  I have studied English for years, especially the grammar of English.

When I say that a word group is not English, I mean that I have never heard that word group used that way, that I have never seen it used that way in writing, that I never use it that way, and that people who are competent native speakers of English do not generate those word groups.  Not being English means being ungrammatical.

To repeat:

Sentences of the form Who that has a good idea should mention it at our next meeting are not English.  Correct, grammatical English requires He who has a good idea ... or, even more usual, Whoever has a good idea ...

You are free to persist in holding a different opinion, of course, but I, too, would request your criteria and your justification.

CJ

  
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