who/which

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Taka

#118833 Sat, 16 Jul 05 05:46 PM

From a story about Wright brothers.

Wilbur tried first, but in an unfortunate start the engine stopped during the take-off. They tossed a coin to see ( ) would try next, an honor which Orville won.

Question: Fill in the blank ( with the right single word)

The answer, according to my book, is 'who'. But isn't 'which' also possible? If not, why not?

Taka

Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2004

Japan

Senior Member (2,266)

Dehbaash

#118837 Sat, 16 Jul 05 06:02 PM

Taka, is the following sentence acceptable to you?

"Taka which is asking the question, wants to know why "which" is not used to refer to a person."

Dehbaash

Joined on Wed, Jun 22 2005

Full Member (140)

Taka

#118860 Sat, 16 Jul 05 07:37 PM

In my humble opinion, 'which' in my question is not a relative pronoun to refer a person.

(Are you really a native speaker of English, may I ask?)

Taka

Nouns, Pronouns, Relative pronouns

davkett

#118863 Sat, 16 Jul 05 07:45 PM

Hi Taka,

'Who' is the appropriate word, because the coin toss will go to either Orville, the person, or Wilbur, the person.

I believe Dehbaash was atemtping to show, by purposely writing it incorrectly, how wrong it sounds to use 'which' when referring to a person.

davkett

Joined on Tue, Jun 7 2005

Pennsylvania, USA

Senior Member (2,788)

"The rose stays fresh in its name..." -Bernard of Morlay

Taka

#118871 Sat, 16 Jul 05 08:21 PM

davkett,

because the coin toss will go to either Orville, the person, or Wilbur, the person.

Right. And consider this example.

It's either Eric or Bill, but I don't know which.

'Which' is used to refer to either person, and this kind of usage is quite natural, isn't it?

Taka

davkett

#118875 Sat, 16 Jul 05 08:53 PM

(I knew you would have some idea of an exception in mind, Taka.)

Yes, it's natural. 'Which', in your example, is a compression of 'which individual it is' = 'who it is'.

'It's either Eric or Bill, but I don't know which [individual it is].'

'They tossed a coin to see (which individual) would try next.'

Explaining the grammatical rule will fall to our specialists. Wait for them.

davkett

MrPedantic

#118935 Sun, 17 Jul 05 01:13 AM

Presumably only the two brothers would have been party to the decision. So the natural question would have been: "So, who goes next, Wilbur?" – which might be reported as:

1. We tossed a coin to see who would go next.

On the other hand, what if the question was 'which of us goes next'? Then it might well be reported as:

2. We tossed a coin to see which (of us) would go next.

Or perhaps some spectators were discussing it at a safe distance. "Well, that wasn't very impressive. Hang on a minute, though – it looks like they're having another go. Which do you think will go up this time?" Which might be reported as:

3. They tossed a coin to see which would go up next.

'Which', to my ears, conveys more of a sense of 'twoness'. But I'd agree that #1 seems best, in the circumstances.

MrP

MrPedantic

Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004

Veteran Member (12,052)

...opella forensis / adducit febris...

Taka

#118990 Sun, 17 Jul 05 07:23 AM

MrP,

Thank you for the reply. But I'm a bit confused.

You said:

'Which', to my ears, conveys more of a sense of 'twoness'.

But you said:

Presumably only the two brothers would have been party to the decision. So the natural question would have been: "So, who goes next...

Why is 'who' natural for only the two brothers??

Taka

MrPedantic

#119000 Sun, 17 Jul 05 09:10 AM

Hello Taka

Sorry, it wasn't very clear.

If a spectator (not one of the brothers) says 'who's going next?', there is a faint sense of 'openness': 'who (among those assembled here) is going next?'. Another spectator might answer, jokingly, "Haven't you heard? It's your turn next!"

Whereas if a spectator says 'which (one) is going next?', there's a presumption of 'restrictedness': to understand 'which', we already need to know the possible choices. The joke is no longer possible.

If the brothers are talking to each other, on the other hand, Wilbur can say 'which of us is going next?', because then the choice ('of us') is explicit. But he can't say simply 'which is going next?', because 'which' on its own would imply that the speaker is not included in the possible choices. So he has to use 'who'.

Or to put it another way: 'which' on its own seems to restrict the choice and exclude the speaker from that choice, in this context; while 'who' can mean 'any who'.

(I suspect I may have made it more complicated than it needs to be.)

MrP

MrPedantic

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