who / who

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Yankee  #389450  Sun, 08 Jul 07 02:50 PM
Hi YL

Why post links to examples of a rare usage that you've managed to find in a Google search -- especially without any comment at all?
My own Google search suggests that any usage of the phrase "internet provider who are" is indeed extremely rare. 
I got no results at all in the BNC.


  
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Kooyeen  #389465  Sun, 08 Jul 07 03:10 PM
 Lcchang wrote:

Ms. Birch has been working for the Internet provider which is now involved in a case of leaking customer information.

Hi everyone,
I wouldn't use "who", unless I was referring to a real person. Internet provider usually doesn't refer to a person, but a company, a firm, etc.
I wouldn't use a plural verb in any case. I think it wouldn't be ok in British English either, because Internet provider doesn't look like a collective noun to me.

Plus, I wouldn't use which either, I'd say that. Which is ok, anyway, but I don't think it is very used in American English, in restrictive relative clauses. Is it formal or just less used, or what? I'd like a brief opinion from a native speaker, if possible.

Thanx Smile [:)]
*** *** *** <----- why are double, triple, etc. X censored? I wanted to write thanx with 3 x, and it was censored... this doesn't make sense, lol

  
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Yoong Liat  #389477  Sun, 08 Jul 07 03:23 PM

 Yankee wrote:
Hi YL

Why post links to examples of a rare usage that you've managed to find in a Google search -- especially without any comment at all?
My own Google search suggests that any usage of the phrase "internet provider who are" is indeed extremely rare. 
I got no results at all in the BNC.

Hi Amy

My own Google search suggests that any usage of the phrase "internet provider who are" is indeed extremely rareDoes 'extremely rare' mean that the usage with a plural verb is wrong?

Honestly, I myself wonder whether the examples provided by me can be considered correct usage. However, I posted them for discussion, not to prove that I'm correct.

Many thanks.

  
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MrPedantic  #389484  Sun, 08 Jul 07 03:42 PM

I think "extremely rare" means "be prepared for momentary synaptic discomfort on the part of addressees if you use it".

MrP

PS: Google doesn't help us with the more common formations, unfortunately. The limitations in the "results" page mean that while we can use Google to assess uncommon usages, we can't check more than the first 999 examples of a more common usage. Who knows what's lurking at position 13,003. Also, Google often returns many versions of the same text (cached versions, etc., and glimpses through profile views).

  
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Yoong Liat  #389669  Mon, 09 Jul 07 05:21 AM

Ms. Birch has been working for the Internet provider which is now involved in a case of leaking customer information.

Lcchang asks: Can I use 'who' instead of 'which' if I view the Internet provider as 'people' ?

I was thinking of the Internet provider as a company. That's why I said it could be written as:

Ms. Birch has been working for the Internet provider who are now involved in a case of leaking customer information. However, I didn't notice that the phrase was the Internet provider.  If 'the' were removed and 'provider' were capitalised, then Internet Provider is a company, and to me "who are" is acceptable.

Ms. Birch has been working for Internet Provider who are now involved in a case of leaking customer information.

A collective noun, particularly in British rather than American English, may be treated as plural, with plural verbs and pronouns. This happens when their members are thought of as a number of individuals: The audience ( = its members ) were all waving their programmes. Chrysler ( = the car people ) have announced a price increase.

We use singular verbs and pronouns when we think of such a group as a single entity: Chrysler is a public corporation; The audience was large.

(The Right Word at the Right Time, edited and designed by The Reader's Digest Association Limited, London)

  
Yankee  #389910  Mon, 09 Jul 07 04:41 PM
 Yoong Liat wrote:
Hi Amy

My own Google search suggests that any usage of the phrase "internet provider who are" is indeed extremely rareDoes 'extremely rare' mean that the usage with a plural verb is wrong?

Honestly, I myself wonder whether the examples provided by me can be considered correct usage. However, I posted them for discussion, not to prove that I'm correct..

I think MrP's responses are quite good. 

No, just because a particular usage is rare, that does not necessarily mean it is incorrect.   I do think it might be a good idea to mention why you've posted links to an unusual usage after experts here have just just told you that it is not common or incorrect.  Posting such links without comment may simply be understood as a challenge to what people have already written in answer to your question. 

I'd just like to add that there are any number of non-standard, incorrect and/or very usuaual usages that can be found using Google.
Some incorrect phrases will actually have an astonishingly high number of Google results. I'll mention an example that I've mentioned here before:  Try googling the grammatically incorrect phrase "look forward to see".  You'll get lots of Google results, but that does not make it any less incorrect.

  
Yoong Liat  #389943  Mon, 09 Jul 07 06:25 PM

Hi Amy

I was not challenging anybody when I posted the links without comments. It was because I had an appointment and was in a hurry.

The problem started because I had mistaken "the Internet provider" to mean the name of a company. 

Had I been more careful, I would have changed the phrase to "Internet Provider", name of the company. "The Internet provider" is not the name of a company.

When you said that it was a rare usage, I thought it that it was wrong. That's why I asked you to confirm.

It is now clear that the usage with 'who are' is correct in BrE if it refers to a company, but it is not recommended in AmE as confirmed by the book I quoted from.

As I said before, I'm learning every day from reading all the posts. I would like to mention that I've learned a lot from native speakers, including you.

Once again, I would like to say I was not challenging anybody. But being in a hurry, I posted the links without any comment.

 

  
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