Who's learning Indian English?

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MrPedantic

#317594 Sat, 20 Jan 07 12:45 PM

Milky wrote:

<In informal situations (e.g. where you have to entertain overseas colleagues who don't speak fluent English)¹, >

That would exclude Indian English speakers, right? I mean, competent speakers of Indian English are fluent speakers of English, right?

It would exclude any speaker whose ability to comprehend your English was not a problem.

For instance, if your interlocutor says "go back" for "go home", say "go back" yourself. It's much easier for everyone.

MrP

¹ (For "speak", read "speak/comprehend".)

MrPedantic

Joined on Tue, Oct 12 2004

Veteran Member (12,047)

...opella forensis / adducit febris...

MrPedantic

#317595 Sat, 20 Jan 07 12:46 PM

Anonymous wrote:

...the cute (and oh-so-short-skirted) sales girls...

The universal generative grammar.

MrP

MrPedantic

Grammar

milky

#317614 Sat, 20 Jan 07 01:36 PM

Thanks for the clarification. So your sentence should have read something like this, right?

"In informal situations (e.g. where you have to entertain overseas colleagues who don't speak your variant of English fluently...."

milky

Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2004

Senior Member (3,149)

Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".

milky

#317617 Sat, 20 Jan 07 01:41 PM

Sorry to contradict you, but that is exactly what is happening in the USA today. Speakers of other Standard variants and indeed taking classes in using Standard American English. The question is, why don't Standard American English speakers, want to do the same when they plan to have long-term contact with certain speakers of other standard dialects?

milky

American English, Dialects

Marvin A.

#317679 Sat, 20 Jan 07 04:52 PM

I think the difference, is that English originated in England, and some of the native speakers were exported to the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. They spoke the original dialects, which slowly went their separate ways over the years. This is a totally difference case, then when non-native speakers learn English. The situation in India is about the same as that in France. The French learn English at school, and/or from their parents. Their parents are *not* native speakers of English. Now, we could certainly call this a "dialect", and even a "standardized dialect" of English--because they would all make the same mistakes, etc., and have very similar pronunciation and grammar. Even if they learned it as a second or third generation person--e.g. their grandparents passed down their knowledge of English to their children, who then passed it on to their children. Ok, this is all well and good, but if they decided to go to an English speaking country, they would not be regarded as being native speakers of English (whether or not they technically were). I have a feeling that when it comes to Indian-English, it is more common to hear it Britain than it is in North America (excluding our larger cities). I know that over there, there are many Indians--so it is more likely that they would consider it to be a proper dialect of English and grant it recognition as a valid form of English. Over here, I'd say that the majority of people don't even know that many people speak English in India, and even if they did, it would be regarded rather the same as how French people, or how Koreans speak English. To add to the problems, since it is not a form of English that we are used to, from what I've heard, it is considered to be one of the *most* difficult accent on English to understand--most people I've talked to have rated it far below say a strong Chinese, or Vietnamese accent in comprehension. Remember, that we have a different mentality over here, since we are not often exposed to people with a strong accent. That is why they would have to learn a recognized dialect of English. Ironically enough, though, if they learned a nearly perfect British accent of English, they would be more likely to be considered to be native speakers of English on this side of the pond, than if they learned a near perfect North American dialect.

Marvin A.

Joined on Fri, Dec 8 2006

Regular Member (638)

Accents, American English, British accent, Dialects, Grammar, Learn English, Pronunciation, Speak english

nona the brit

#317723 Sat, 20 Jan 07 06:20 PM

"Sorry to contradict you, but that is exactly what is happening in the USA today. Speakers of other Standard variants and indeed taking classes in using Standard American English. The question is, why don't Standard American English speakers, want to do the same when they plan to have long-term contact with certain speakers of other standard dialects?"

There is a big difference between living in a country and merely dealing long-distance with people from another country. If you emigrate to any country it is wise to learn the native language. So anyone moving to America would be wise to learn American English - the native language. Or Spanish, depending on where they were going to live.

Anyone moving to India would be wise to learn the native language spoken in the area they lived in. That is not Indian English. It might be Urdu, for example.

You are comparing apples with pears.

nona the brit

Joined on Wed, Sep 22 2004

England

Veteran Member (11,347)

The name says it all.

American English, Dialects, Difference between

Marvin A.

#317739 Sat, 20 Jan 07 06:57 PM

So anyone moving to America would be wise to learn American English - the native language.

Actually, in some instances learning RP would actually be better. If you can speak with a nearly perfect RP accent, you will be perceived as being a native speaker of British English, on this side of the pond. If however, you speak nearly-but-not-quite-perfect General American, you'll just sound like a foreigner with an accent, albeit not a very strong one. If, however, you can only speak with a mediocre RP accent, then yes, it is better to learn General American, because you wouldn't be mistaken for a native speaker, and you might as well try to speak as closely as possible to the people you are around.

<It also helps if you speak slowly and loudly, and pause after each word.>

How does speaking loudly help?

That is known as a joke.

The question is, why don't Standard American English speakers, want to do the same when they plan to have long-term contact with certain speakers of other standard dialects?

I think this quote from Wikipedia will describe how Indian English is perceived, even in India:
"Formal British English is preferred to layman's Indian English in educated Indian circles and higher Indian writing. Middle and upper-class Indians, especially those with greater exposure to the West through books, electronic media (such as television or movies) and travel, tend to speak more grammatically-standard English. British English is an official language of central and state governments in India. What is characterised as Indian English is not considered "correct usage" by either government-related institutions (such as offices and schools) or educated Indians who prize 'proper' English."

The question is, why don't Standard American English speakers, want to do the same when they plan to have long-term contact with certain speakers of other standard dialects?

Do you actually believe that it's perceived as being "Standard English"? On this side of the pond, it's perceived as English spoken by non-native speakers, with a non-native accent, that is quite unprestigious, and one of the most difficult accents to understand. In fact, we would more likely consider English spoken with a heavy French or German accent to sound like Standard English, than Indian-English. Besides, the upper-class and educated Indians speak something like RP. Now it is true that we all try to adapt our English to a certain extent to be able to facilitate communication with whomever we are speaking. That does not mean that we would learn Indian-English.

I can't tell if you're serious about all of this, or just doing this as sort of a thought-experiment or something. Do you speak Indian-English or something? Or are you a British English speaker? I don't really know what the attitude towards Indian English people on the other side of the pond is, but at least over here, it is not considered a proper form of English. The only Indians that would be considered native speakers of English are the ones that moved here, or to Britain (or Australia, etc.), at a young age and grew up speaking English, or whose parents were English/American/Canadian/etc. and taught them English.

Marvin A.

Accents, American English, British English, Dialects, Jokes, Speaking English

milky

#317931 Sun, 21 Jan 07 10:09 AM

When were native speakers exported to the US? The US became the US at what date?

Was France ruled by Britain for a few hundred years?

<Now, we could certainly call this a "dialect", and even a "standardized dialect" of English-->

As is Standard American English.

May Americans would not eveb know that Denmark is a country. So, time to educate yourselves?

How many people would that be?

<Remember, that we have a different mentality over here, since we are not often exposed to people with a strong accent. >

Not even Spanish speakers? I think what is really happening here is that you and your mates don't have much contact with "foreigners" who live in your country.

I've been teaching EFL for 26 years all over the globe. Most of the studtent complaints I get about understandability are related to the way white Americans speak.

milky

Accents, American English, Dates, Dialects, Learn English, Speak english

Anonymous

#317999 Sun, 21 Jan 07 02:18 PM

:"I've been teaching EFL for 26 years all over the globe. Most of the studtent complaints I get about understandability are related to the way white Americans speak."
Then for Crikies sake, expose them to some decent English, and do us all a (inappropriate language removed by moderator).!

Anonymous

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