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milky  #283741  Sat, 21 Oct 06 02:11 AM
  • Different Englishes have different ways of hedging, qualifying, softening, joking, insulting. They have different expectations for when indirection is appropriate – and for what is perceived as indirect – for what is perceived as friendly/personal/overfamiliar – and for what is perceived as polite/distant/hostile (Trosberg, 1995).
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    Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".
    milky  #284200  Sun, 22 Oct 06 10:06 AM

    More from Nayar, on investigating language fora and the image of the non-native speaker vs. the native-speaker:

    "Nayar notices that inadequacies in the use of English are often interpreted as some kind of general deprivation, whether cognitive, itellectual, social or emotional."

    "The overall image is that the English learning community is in need of "pastoral care" because of its being intellectually impoverished, if not inferior, and socio-economically impoverished."

    Us and Others: Social Identities Across Languages, Discourses and Cultures (Pragmatics and Beyond New Series)
    by
    Anna Duszak (Editor)
      
    milky  #284628  Mon, 23 Oct 06 10:35 AM

    The OED faces an increasingly uphill struggle in its attempts to capture World English; almost every Anglophone country has now developed a set of distinctive uses, some more divergent than others.

     

    Roger Blench

      
    milky  #284662  Mon, 23 Oct 06 12:47 PM
    We may, in due course, all need to be in control of two standard Englishes—the one which gives us our national and local identity, and the other which puts us in touch with the rest of the human race. In effect, we may all need to become bilingual in our own language. — David Crystal (1988: p. 265)
      
    Englishuser  #284731  Mon, 23 Oct 06 04:22 PM

    Hi milky,

    You quoted David Crystal:

    We may, in due course, all need to be in control of two standard Englishes—the one which gives us our national and local identity, and the other which puts us in touch with the rest of the human race. In effect, we may all need to become bilingual in our own language.

    Yes, I am familiar with Crystal's theory. Some even claim (wasn't Crystal one of them or am I mistaken?) that future generations of native English speakers will need to learn as many as three 'versions' of the language: 1) The local vernacular; 2) The national standard; 3) 'International English'. 'International English' is naturally what most ESL/EFL students would learn as it would be the major lingua franca in use all over the world.

    Englishuser

      
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    milky  #284748  Mon, 23 Oct 06 05:30 PM
     Englishuser wrote:

    Hi milky,

    You quoted David Crystal:

    We may, in due course, all need to be in control of two standard Englishes—the one which gives us our national and local identity, and the other which puts us in touch with the rest of the human race. In effect, we may all need to become bilingual in our own language.

    Yes, I am familiar with Crystal's theory. Some even claim (wasn't Crystal one of them or am I mistaken?) that future generations of native English speakers will need to learn as many as three 'versions' of the language: 1) The local vernacular; 2) The national standard; 3) 'International English'. 'International English' is naturally what most ESL/EFL students would learn as it would be the major lingua franca in use all over the world.

    Englishuser

    That's correct, but the idea has been around a while:

    "Well, I'm glad you've come," her mother said, as soon as the last note had passed out of her. "I want to go and fetch your father; but what's more'n that, I want to tell 'ee what have happened. Y'll be fess enough, my poppet, when th'st know!" (Mrs Durbeyfield habitually spoke the dialect; her daughter, who had passed the Sixth Standard in the National School under a London-trained mistress, spoke two languages: the dialect at home, more or less; ordinary English abroad and to persons of quality.)

    "Tess of the d'Urbervilles", Thomas Hardy.

      
    milky  #284769  Mon, 23 Oct 06 06:37 PM

    It's Nayar week:

    "Q: When native speakers of English teach English, they naturally do it based on their own cultures. Why is this a problem?

    A: When you teach a language, you teach the principles, the mind-set, ideology and philosophy, everything that goes with the culture of the people of that language. I think this is not fair.

    When Americans teach English in Japan, for example, they will expect you not just to speak the language, but they will expect to put American minds into Japanese bodies. Why can't they speak English and still be Japanese? Why do you have to speak English like an American?"

    Ginko Kobayashi / Special to The Daily Yomiuri

      
    Englishuser  #284787  Mon, 23 Oct 06 07:37 PM

    Hi milky,

    You wrote:

    That's correct, but the idea has been around a while:

    True. Although the concept of an international variety of English is a new one to me.

    Englishuser

      
    MrPedantic  #284855  Tue, 24 Oct 06 12:37 AM

    I would say that the "international" form develops naturally for a speaker, when e.g. you speak to many different people from many different countries in the course of your work. A feature would be, for instance, the careful avoidance of "colourful" idioms (and dead metaphors).

    MrP

      
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