Whose property?

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milky  #292859  Tue, 14 Nov 06 10:08 AM

 Forbes wrote:

It seems to me that the goal of academic research should be to find out things that we do not know and then explain them to us in language we can understand. I often feel that in the social sciences it is the other way round: that we are told what we know in language we cannot understand.

So, would you advise having one register for all communication?

  
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Hume said that if we had perfect or complete descriptive knowledge of reality, we could not, by reasoning, derive a single valid "ought".
milky  #292862  Tue, 14 Nov 06 10:10 AM

<Cool Breeze.

For anyone interested in an introduction to social sciences in plain English, C. Wright Mills's book The Sociological Imagination is a must.

Cheers
CB>

Which register would you say that book is written in?

  
MrPedantic  #293146  Tue, 14 Nov 06 10:47 PM
 Milky wrote:

 Forbes wrote:

It seems to me that the goal of academic research should be to find out things that we do not know and then explain them to us in language we can understand. I often feel that in the social sciences it is the other way round: that we are told what we know in language we cannot understand.

So, would you advise having one register for all communication?

I think you've missed the joke and the point, Milky.

MrP

  
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...opella forensis / adducit febris...
Forbes  #294342  Fri, 17 Nov 06 03:40 PM

"Q: When native speakers of English teach English, they naturally do it based on their own cultures. Why is this a problem?

A: When you teach a language, you teach the principles, the mind-set, ideology and philosophy, everything that goes with the culture of the people of that language. I think this is not fair.

When Americans teach English in Japan, for example, they will expect you not just to speak the language, but they will expect to put American minds into Japanese bodies. Why can't they speak English and still be Japanese? Why do you have to speak English like an American?"

Ginko Kobayashi / Special to The Daily Yomiuri

I think he is missing the point in an excess of nationalism.

When you teach a language you need to teach the learner to think like a native speaker of the language. This is not the same as saying you need to adopt their philosophy of life. Americans and British for example may have different philosophies of life, but they "think the same" when it comes to how they describe the world through language.

An illustration from Spanish. In English the subjunctive is virtually a dead duck. Spanish uses the subjunctive all the time.

Busco al hombre que habla inglés. (I am looking for the man who speaks English.)

Busco a un hombre que hable inglés. (I am looking for a man who speaks English.)

In the first case the speaker uses the indicative because he believes the man exists, in the second case he uses the subjunctive because he does not know he exists. This distinction is made by all native Spanish speakers whether they live in the High Andes or on the Costa del Sol. Every native speaker of Spanish is continuously assessing (sub-consciously at least) whether the situation is hypothetical or doubtful, relates to the future etc in a way that native English speakers do not, as their language does not require them to make the same distinctions as Spanish. If you want to speak Spanish "like a native" you need to think like a native Spanish speaker, or if you like a Spaniard or Peruvian. This does not mean that you need to become a Roman Catholic and appreciate the finer points of bulfighting.

Japanese, a language I have studied cursorily, is far more different from English than Spanish. I am sure the basics of English are as difficult for the Japanese to grasp as the basics of Japanese are for the English to grasp. In both cases teachers need to break down the linguistic preconceptions of the pupil. This may involve asking the pupil to forget, for the duration of the lesson, that he is English/Japanese.

When the pupil has advanced it is necessary to introduce to the pupil to some "real" examples of the language. This of necessity involves examples written by native speakers. I doubt there is any Japanese literature written by Englishmen or Japanese literature written by Englishmen.

When I speak Spanish I become a slightly different person - not a Spaniard, but an Englishman in Spanish clothes.

  
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milky  #294401  Fri, 17 Nov 06 05:54 PM

<When you teach a language you need to teach the learner to think like a native speaker of the language. >

Most of the English that is taught around the world is Standard English. So, please define the culture of a Standard English speaker.

<When I speak Spanish I become a slightly different person - not a Spaniard, but an Englishman in Spanish clothes.>

When I speak Spanish, I'm myself speaking Spanish. You can tell me how the Spanish think, but I do not need to adopt their cultural values in order to communicate successfully.

  
milky  #294403  Fri, 17 Nov 06 05:58 PM

<This distinction is made by all native Spanish speakers whether they live in the High Andes or on the Costa del Sol.>

What has that got to do with culture? Many languages make that distinction. Teach your students about the way the subjunctive works, crossculturally,  in languages and then give some examples of Spanish use. No need for an imposition of Spanis culture or social values.

  
Alienvoord  #294411  Fri, 17 Nov 06 06:22 PM
 Forbes wrote:

Busco al hombre que habla inglés. (I am looking for the man who speaks English.)

Busco a un hombre que hable inglés. (I am looking for a man who speaks English.)

In the first case the speaker uses the indicative because he believes the man exists, in the second case he uses the subjunctive because he does not know he exists. This distinction is made by all native Spanish speakers whether they live in the High Andes or on the Costa del Sol. Every native speaker of Spanish is continuously assessing (sub-consciously at least) whether the situation is hypothetical or doubtful, relates to the future etc in a way that native English speakers do not, as their language does not require them to make the same distinctions as Spanish. If you want to speak Spanish "like a native" you need to think like a native Spanish speaker, or if you like a Spaniard or Peruvian. This does not mean that you need to become a Roman Catholic and appreciate the finer points of bulfighting.



I'm not sure I understand this. The distinction of whether the speaker believes the man exists or not is made in English as well. It's made by the choice of the article - definite or indefinite. Spanish and English express this distinction in different ways.
  
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MrPedantic  #294572  Sat, 18 Nov 06 01:47 AM
 Forbes wrote:

When you teach a language you need to teach the learner to think like a native speaker of the language. This is not the same as saying you need to adopt their philosophy of life.

...

If you want to speak Spanish "like a native" you need to think like a native Spanish speaker, or if you like a Spaniard or Peruvian. This does not mean that you need to become a Roman Catholic and appreciate the finer points of bulfighting.

A significant stage in language-learning is reached, for instance, when you put aside your "X to English" dictionary, and start to use a dictionary the natives use.

 Forbes wrote:

When I speak Spanish I become a slightly different person - not a Spaniard, but an Englishman in Spanish clothes.

That accords with my experience: in every language you learn, you become a slightly different person. It seems to have a physiological basis.

MrP

  
Forbes  #295001  Sun, 19 Nov 06 02:23 AM
 Alienvoord wrote:
 Forbes wrote:

Busco al hombre que habla inglés. (I am looking for the man who speaks English.)

Busco a un hombre que hable inglés. (I am looking for a man who speaks English.)

In the first case the speaker uses the indicative because he believes the man exists, in the second case he uses the subjunctive because he does not know he exists. This distinction is made by all native Spanish speakers whether they live in the High Andes or on the Costa del Sol. Every native speaker of Spanish is continuously assessing (sub-consciously at least) whether the situation is hypothetical or doubtful, relates to the future etc in a way that native English speakers do not, as their language does not require them to make the same distinctions as Spanish. If you want to speak Spanish "like a native" you need to think like a native Spanish speaker, or if you like a Spaniard or Peruvian. This does not mean that you need to become a Roman Catholic and appreciate the finer points of bulfighting.



I'm not sure I understand this. The distinction of whether the speaker believes the man exists or not is made in English as well. It's made by the choice of the article - definite or indefinite. Spanish and English express this distinction in different ways.

I think the fact that (in both languages) in one case you use the definite article and in the other an indefinite is not really relevant to the point I am trying to make.

Consider this:

A shop puts up a sign that says: "We have people who speak English."

You go in and ask: "Can I speak to a person who speaks English?"

Another shop has no sign.

You go in and ask: "Can I speak to a person who speaks English?"

In the first case you will be assuming that there is someone who speaks English, in the second  you do not know.

In the first case in Spanish you will use the indicative and in the second the subjunctive. Spanish makes a distinction that English does not make; or to be more precise, in English you can make the distinction if you wish, but in Spanish the distinction must be made.

  
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