"will" in if-clause

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Guest  #94111  Thu, 28 Apr 05 08:40 AM
I would appreciate your help very much with the following questions.
If you won't helpus, all our plans will be ruined. 1.
If you will use it, you can have it. 2.
Does the "will" in the if clause of 1 and 2 have modal meanings, which may be "want to do, or willing to do"?

If drugs will cure hime, this should do the job. 3.
What does "will" mean in 3.?

If you won't arrive before six, I can't meet you. 4. My grammar book explains the if clause as "If you won't be arriving before six"

If the game won't be finished until ten, I'll spend the night at your place. 5. The explation given by my grammar book is "If the game is not going to be finished until ten"

If the water will rise above this level, then we must warn wverybody in the neighbourhood. 6. My grammar book says "if the water is going to rise above this level, then we must now plan to warn everybody in the neighbourhood."

If we definite won't win, why should we bother to play? The explanation is: "If we definitely aren't going to win, ..."

Besides the questions about 1,2 and 3, I have quite a few about 4, 5, and 6.
Questions about 4: What does the "will" mean? the grammar book's explanation is in the future progressive tense, why the tense be used here? Can the if clause be changed to "if you don't arrive before six"?

Questions about 5: The meaning of "will", Why is it interpretated as "if the game is not going to be finished until ten"? Can the game plan itself? Can the if clause be changed to "if the game isn't finished until ten"?

Questions about 6: Why is "will" used in the if clause? is it a modal? Does it mean we don't want to win? "to be going to " in the explanation sounds strange, can the if clause be changed to "if we definitely can't win" or "if we definitely don't win"?

These sentences are taken from my grammar book, I don't understand what is said about them. Thank you very much for your help. Mei
  
paco2004  #94184  Thu, 28 Apr 05 01:50 PM
Hello Mei

Welcome to our EnglishForum. I heartedly welcome you, though I myself am a mere English learner.

As you know well, "will" is seldom used in if-clauses. For example, usually you don't say "If she will not attend the class tomorrow, she can't take the final exam", because it is enough to say just "If she doesn't attend the class tomorrow, she can't take the final exam", when your are neutral in predicting the possibility/probability of her attending tomorrow's class. But you can use a "will" construct in an if-clause, when you are rather sure that the event stated in the if-clause will happen in future.

(EX1) If you won't help us, all our plans will be ruined.
= If it is certain you don't want to help us, all our will be ruined.
(EX2) If you will use it, you can have it.
= If you definitely desire to use it, you can have it.
(EX3) If drugs will cure him, this should do the job.
= If it is certain some drug is able to cure him, this drug should do the job.
(EX4) If you won't arrive before six, I can't meet you.
= If it is certain you won't arrive before six, I can't meet you.
(EX5) If the game won't be finished until ten, I'll spend the night at your place.
= If it is certain the game will not finish until ten, I'll spend the night at your place.
(EX6) If the water will rise above this level, then we must warn everybody in the neighborhood.
= If it is certain/destined the water level will rise above this level, then we must warn everybody in the neighborhood.
(EX7) If we definitely won't win, why should we bother to play.
= If it is destined we don't win, why should we bother to play.

I take those 'will' as modals used to emphasize voluntariness, capacity, and futurity.

This is my humble thought. But, as I'm a mere learner, you'd better not believe me so much. Please wait until our teachers give you better and more correct explanations.

paco
  
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MrPedantic  #94235  Thu, 28 Apr 05 04:13 PM
Yes, welcome, Mei!

To supplement rather than contradict Paco's analysis:

1. If you won't help us, all our plans will be ruined.
— Here 'will' is used to express 'be willing to', rather than a future tense.

2. If you will use it, you can have it.
— You could read 'will' as 'intend', i.e. 'if you intend to use it, you can have it'.

Strictly speaking, this isn't an ordinary conditional, since 'having it' precedes 'using it'. You could rephrase it:

'Provided that you use it, you can have it.'

3. If drugs will cure him, this should do the job.
— You could take it as a variant on a type '0' conditional ('If ice melts, it forms water'), e.g.

'If drugs can cure him, this can cure him.'

4. If you won't arrive before six, I can't meet you.
— In standard conditional statements, we have a condition in the IF clause, and the consequence of meeting that condition in the main clause, e.g.

'If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.'
'If I were you, I'd find another job.'

But other kinds of IF statement are intended to express an inference, rather than a condition. So we have a fact in the IF clause, and an inference in the main clause. That's the case here. We can test it by replacing 'If' with 'Since':

'Since you won't arrive/won't be arriving before six, I can't meet you.'

(Note that 'if' can't be replaced with 'since' in true conditional statements.)

4a.Can the if clause be changed to "if you don't arrive before six"?
- Yes!

5. If the game won't be finished until ten, I'll spend the night at your place.

– Again, not strictly a conditional IF. Really, the speaker means:

'Since the game won't be finished until ten, I'll spend the night at your place.'

5a. Can the if clause be changed to "if the game isn't finished BY ten"?
- Yes; but then it makes a condition of the IF clause, and so changes the meaning.

6. If the water will rise above this level, then we must warn everybody in the neighbourhood.
— I would disagree with your book about this one. I wouldn't myself use 'will' here. Indeed, as the sentence stands, it could be interpreted as either:

'If the water rises above this level...' (i.e. it's still only a possibility)

or

'If the water is going to rise above this level...' (i.e. it's certain).

Presumably the second interpretation is intended, i.e.

'Given that the water is going to rise above this level, we must warn everybody in the neighbourhood.'

MrP
  
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paco2004  #94242  Thu, 28 Apr 05 04:35 PM
Hello MrP

Thank you for correcting my answers. I think I misunderstood #3 to #7 (#3 above all). I think the grammar book the questioner refers is Quirk's CGEL. Those conditionals are really hard for me to get.

paco
  
MrPedantic  #94384  Fri, 29 Apr 05 01:00 AM
Hello Paco

How do conditional statements work in Japanese?

(I'm not convinced that "type 1/2/3 etc" is the most helpful way of presenting conditionals; maybe there's a way of explaining that would be easier for Japanese people.)

MrP

  
paco2004  #94390  Fri, 29 Apr 05 01:53 AM
Hello MrP

In the Japanese conditionals, we change the apodosis' expressions according to conditionals' reality. In the case the conditional is known to be rather unreal, we use an expression similar to English modal constructs in the apodosis, and when we judge neutrally about the possibility of its realization, we use a usual assertive statement in the apodosis. As for the construct for the protasis, we use basically the same expression whether the protasis statement is a unreal supposition or a supposition neutral about its possibility. So for Japanese people who are learning English conditionals, I think, it would be the protasis rather than the apodosis that they feel more difficult to make different in its expression according to the possibility. This difficulty seems to be amplified by the fact that our language lacks the verbal mood difference such as seen in English indicative and subjunctive moods.

paco
  
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