wish clauses

Yankee wrote:

Did you read the rest of my post, MrC?  I attempted to make it clear why YL's sentence works. The danger in stating absolute rules in prescriptive grammar is that doing so doesn't allow for legitimate exceptions. For example, many grammar books state that the word 'would' may not be used in an IF-clause.  That is incorrect.  While that rule is usually true, there are times when using 'would' is perfectly acceptable and grammatical in an IF-clause.

Hi Amy,

We don’t always agree on everything but  I do respect your credentials in English. If you don’t mind, I would like to hear your opinions. The correct usage of “were” and “was” with the “I wish” construction definitely has become a heated debate.  According to traditional English (the kind I have learned), the “I wish I were” or “if”  and several other conditional constructions are called “subjunctive” which most native and learners are very familiar with. There are few of those who believe “I wish I was …” is also correct. It’s true that many people use it this way, however, it doesn’t mean it’s a changing trend, and therefore it’s correct to use. True, the user may say whatever he prefers. But when we are on this forum to discuss English, don't you think we all need to conform to the rules of the traditional English? Do you agree?

Having said that, based on the principle of subjunctive, this “was " usage is incorrect in my opinion, whether it’s accepted as mainstream English or otherwise. Obviously, even the English Authorities have varying degrees of opinions, some said it’s incorrect while some said it’s acceptable.  My argument is not so much to find out who is right, rather, what the believers’ argument is based on. Clearly the “I wish I …..” is a conditional sentence, which is “subjunctive”. So if one insists on using this “I wish I was” construction and to have the twisted attitude to ask  why I keep insisting on  the rules of subjunctive, I feel the warped discussion is over.  If you don’t mind, would  shed some light on the subject? And would you call ithe "was" usage a changing trend and therefore it’s acceptable?  If yo ufeel uncomfortable answering these direct questions, I do understand.

Thanks  

Yoong Liat wrote:

Hi Goodman You wrote: subjunctive after wish.  Yet another traditional rule requires you to use were rather than was in a contrary-to-fact statement that follows the verb wish: I wish I were (not was) lighter on my feet. Many writers continue to insist on this rule, but the indicative was in such clauses can be found in the works of many well-known writers. The discussion is on whether to use 'was' or 'were' in "I wish it was not raining so heavily.'  I know that 'was' is correctly used in the sentence. However, 'were' is more correct. Why should you insist on talking about 'subjunctive'? If an authority on English tells you by example sentences that 'was'  is informal and 'were' is formal in such sentences, I think that's good enough. Traditional rule requires you to use were. English is evolving. What is traditional may not the only correct version now, and in certain cases, is considered wrong nowadays. Many writers continue to insist on this rule, but the indicative was in such clauses can be found in the works of many well-known writers. Exactly! If well-known writers use 'was', why do you insist that 'was' is wrong. 'The reason .... is because', according to grammar and English usage books is wrong. However, the best writers and speakers use the phrase. Can we say they are wrong? To me, they are not.  In case, you miss reading my earlier post citing another English authority, I reproduce below what I had written earlier. The following is quoted from Collins Cobuild English Usage, another well-known English authority. When the subject of the 'that'-clause is a singular pronoun such as "I" or 'he' or a single noun group, you can use either 'was' or 'were' after it. (NOTICE 'WAS' IS MENTIONED FIRST). This use of  'were' is rather formal. Sometimes I wish I was back in Africa. I often wish I were really wealthy. He wished it was time for Lamin to return. My sister occasionally wished that she were a boy. I hope you now understand that you shouldn't insist that 'was' is wrong. You may say 'was' is correct but 'were' is more correct. Best wishes

Liat,

As far as I am concerned, if you chose to ignore the rules of English, this warped discussion is going nowhere and may as well be considered over. Believe in what you please. It really doesn't matter. What was frustrating with the discussion was that you seemed to disregard the subjunctive rules. In the world I live it, if we are not bound by rules, we will be living in chaos. In English...well, it's evident!   I wish you luck!

Yoong Liat wrote:

Hi, Yoong Liat, Your sentence above is wrong I think because the subject of "would" can never be the same as the subject of "wish" Hi MrCurious The following sentences are for your information. I wish she would stop singing. (Basic English Usage by Michael Swan) I wish he would knock before coming in. (Times-Chambers Essential English Dictionary) I wish he would do as he's told. (Right Word Wrong Word by L. G. Alexander)

Hello Yoong Liat,

I'm repeating my words again.  the subject of "would" can never be the same as the subject of "wish"

In your examples, the subjects are different

I wish she would stop singing. (Basic English Usage by Michael Swan)
I wish he would knock before coming in. (Times-Chambers Essential English Dictionary)
I wish he would do as he's told. (Right Word Wrong Word by L. G. Alexander)

MrCurious wrote:

Yoong Liat wrote: Hi, Yoong Liat, Your sentence above is wrong I think because the subject of "would" can never be the same as the subject of "wish" Hi MrCurious The following sentences are for your information. I wish she would stop singing. (Basic English Usage by Michael Swan) I wish he would knock before coming in. (Times-Chambers Essential English Dictionary) I wish he would do as he's told. (Right Word Wrong Word by L. G. Alexander) Hello Yoong Liat, I'm repeating my words again.  the subject of "would" can never be the same as the subject of "wish" In your examples, the subjects are different I wish she would stop singing. (Basic English Usage by Michael Swan) I wish he would knock before coming in. (Times-Chambers Essential English Dictionary) I wish he would do as he's told. (Right Word Wrong Word by L. G. Alexander)