without 'will' ?

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CalifJim

#440514 Fri, 09 Nov 07 08:39 AM

Regarding to "will help you"... That's incorrect too... It would be a lot easier if you were brazilian or spanish because this way I could explain why to you with a translation

You are proceeding from the point of view that only Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese have chosen the correct tenses to be used in certain situations!

It seems that you don't know that each language has its own pattern of usage. The correct tense for a given situation is different from language to language. There is not one correct way to determine the correct tense for a given situation. What is correct for a given thought depends on which language you want to use to express it.

Spanish and Italian use the past subjunctive after if, for example, whereas French uses the imperfect.
Spanish uses the present subjunctive after (most cases of) when (and other adverbial conjunctions of time), whereas French and Italian use the future, and English uses the present indicative.

Many of the world's languages do not use the subjunctive at all. Its use in English is somewhat limited compared with other European languages.

CJ

CalifJim

Joined on Mon, Aug 2 2004

California

Veteran Member (17,568)

"There are no facts, only interpretations" - Nietzsche

Tenses, Subjunctives, Translation

Marcelinx

#441047 Sat, 10 Nov 07 06:41 PM

Well, I'm sorry, but at least for me, it's very hard to see future or present when you have a subjunctive in your mother language that perfectly fits the situation. For me, present talks about present, same with future. That being said, can somebody explain to me how "Well, I certainly hope he will help you" is fine?
I thought about all the conditionals I know, and "will" never replaces what is called subjunctive in my language, which is portuguese. Present sometimes do (like in the first conditional: "When you leave, I'll miss you"): in this case, it replaces what is called in portuguese the future subjunctive.
But I've never seen portuguese's subjunctives being replaced by will.
So, why can you say "Well, I certainly hope he will help you" and "Well, I certainly hope he helps you". Aren't there appropriate subjunctive verb tenses for this cases?

Thank you

Marcelinx

Joined on Wed, Jun 27 2007

New Member (15)

Verbs, Tenses, Subjunctives, Conditionals

Clive

#441059 Sat, 10 Nov 07 07:55 PM

Hi,

As CJ said, the subjunctive's use in English is somewhat limited . . .

Some people never use it, and many people would argue that it is dying out of the language. Some people, including perhaps you, regret this.

Best wishes, Clive Crying [:'(]

Clive

Joined on Thu, Oct 28 2004

Canada

Veteran Member (22,269)

El tango argentino es un pensamiento triste que se puede bailar (The tango argentino is a sad thought which can be danced) Enrique Santos Discépolo

Subjunctives

Mister Micawber

#441159 Sun, 11 Nov 07 04:19 AM

So, why can you say "Well, I certainly hope he will help you" and "Well, I certainly hope he helps you". Aren't there appropriate subjunctive verb tenses for this cases?

In a word, 'No'. Marcelinx. English does not use subjunctive here.

Mister Micawber

Joined on Wed, Aug 4 2004

Yokohama

Veteran Member (22,347)

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

Verbs, Tenses, Subjunctives

Hoa Thai

#441176 Sun, 11 Nov 07 06:07 AM

Dear Marcelinx,

May I share with you the two following websites that I found very helpful to me regarding the use of 'subjuntives' in ENGLISH?

1. [link]
2. [link]

The first site lists the verbs and expressions followed by the 'subjunctives'. Note that 'hope' is not mentioned.
At the second site, you should find more explanation about subjunctives. Be ware of the word 'traditional' floating all over the text.

Good reading,
Hoa Thai

Hoa Thai

Joined on Mon, Oct 15 2007

Vietnam

Contributing Member (1,100)

Best Regards - Hoa Thai

Verbs, Expressions, Subjunctives

CalifJim

#441529 Sun, 11 Nov 07 10:43 PM

But I've never seen portuguese's subjunctives being replaced by will.
So, why can you say "Well, I certainly hope he will help you" and "Well, I certainly hope he helps you". Aren't there appropriate subjunctive verb tenses for this cases?

You are falling into the trap of believing that every language has the same structure of verb tenses as your own language, and that the same tenses are used in the exact same way for all languages. This is completely fallacious.

A language is not a code. You can't just substitute the words (or verb tenses) of one language for another and hope that you'll produce utterances that make sense. This in mind, it is only a small step to see that the verb tense structure of one's own language is nearly irrelevant (and may be an impediment) in learning a new language.

CJ

CalifJim

Verbs, Tenses, Subjunctives

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