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Can I say "Wood is not stronger than steel."?

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Goodman  #439248  Mon, 05 Nov 07 11:21 PM

 

Your wrote: Steel is not as strong as wood. It is stronger.

In this kind of  contrast structure,  this sentence posted some doubts in my head and I wonder how many see it that way.  Or am I the only one?

By drawing a parallel to your logic, then  A roof over your head in Calif does not cost as much as New York, it costs more” is a correct structure in your opinion, is that correct?

 

If you will, please think about the context of the above sentence :

This first part of the statement essentially says : A dwelling in California costs less than that of N.Y.  but the second part contradicted the first part. I believe adding “only” made the sentence more contrastive and clear.

 

To bring the contrast between samples subjects, we need adverbs like merely or only to be constructed in the sentence.  i.e. Mary not only can  type as fast as Susan,  she is also faster and more accurate.

In a slightly different flavor, we can spice it a little: "As a secretary, Mary not only is as capable as Susan, she is also more plesant to work with and less error prone.

  
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Kooyeen  #439612  Tue, 06 Nov 07 07:54 PM
 Goodman wrote:

A roof over your head in Calif does not cost as much as New York, it costs more” is a correct structure in your opinion, is that correct?

Hi,

yes. MM confused me a little when he mentioned a less usual interpretation, which is the interpretation of my example and your example above too. I just wanted to be sure I understood, and I asked. Well, Clive answered in the end, and agreed that structure is ok.

 Goodman wrote:

This first part of the statement essentially says : A dwelling in California costs less than that of N.Y.

No, that's the usual interpretation. But you could look at the literal meaning instead of the usual one, and so it basically says that the price in Cali is not the same as the price in New York. It could be less, it could be more. But when this structure is used with this meaning the stress (and usually intonation too) plays an important role in the sentence.

 Goodman wrote:

To bring the contrast between samples subjects, we need adverbs like merely or only to be constructed in the sentence.  i.e. Mary not only can  type as fast as Susan,  she is also faster and more accurate.

If you add "only" that way you are changing the structure, and a second interpretation is not possible anymore. You are negating "only", but not the comparison "as... as..."
That's why...

Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. <-- is ok.
Steel is not only as strong as wood, but it's also stronger. <-- doesn't make sense to me.

Look at this, "not" doesn't negate the clause when you use the structure "not only... but also...":

You are not smart. <--- I'm not saying you're smart... I'm saying you're not!
You are not only smart, but you also... <--- But here I'm actually saying you're smart...

That's all. Smile [:)]

  
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Goodman  #439630  Tue, 06 Nov 07 09:11 PM
 Kooyeen wrote:
 Goodman wrote:

A roof over your head in Calif does not cost as much as New York, it costs more” is a correct structure in your opinion, is that correct?

Hi,

yes. MM confused me a little when he mentioned a less usual interpretation, which is the interpretation of my example and your example above too. I just wanted to be sure I understood, and I asked. Well, Clive answered in the end, and agreed that structure is ok.

 Goodman wrote:

This first part of the statement essentially says : A dwelling in California costs less than that of N.Y.

No, that's the usual interpretation. But you could look at the literal meaning instead of the usual one, and so it basically says that the price in Cali is not the same as the price in New York. It could be less, it could be more. But when this structure is used with this meaning the stress (and usually intonation too) plays an important role in the sentence.

 Goodman wrote:

To bring the contrast between samples subjects, we need adverbs like merely or only to be constructed in the sentence.  i.e.

If you add "only" that way you are changing the structure, and a second interpretation is not possible anymore. You are negating "only", but not the comparison "as... as..."
That's why...

Look at this, "not" doesn't negate the clause when you use the structure "not only... but also...":

You are not smart. <--- I'm not saying you're smart... I'm saying you're not!
You are not only smart, but you also... <--- But here I'm actually saying you're smart...

That's all. Smile [:)]


Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. <-- is ok. ---Hate to disgree with you but this is not ok in my book, although Clive deemed it "acceptable", noting that it usually is accompanied by adverbs like "merely/ just/ only".

You wrote: Steel not only is as strong as wood, but it's also stronger. <-- doesn't make sense to me.

Let's change the material a little: Fiberglass is not only stronger than steel, it's also lighter. Now, does this sound better and make more sense to you?

Fiberglass Railing suits commercial and residential use ...

"We've designed a product that is not only great looking and easy to install, but stronger than its competitors by far," said a company spokesperson. ...
news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/529739 - 64k - Cached - Similar pages
Light aircraft raw materials: Wood, Aluminum, Steel, and Composites
And even better, it is not only strong in tension but also in compression. .... Both wood and fiberglass need special analysis procedures to predict the ...

You said:

You are not smart. <--- I'm not saying you're smart... I'm saying you're not! Kooyeen, I have no idea where you are leading me and I am completely lost with you!
You are not only smart, but you also... <--- But here I'm actually saying you're smart
...

The bottom line, "X is not only ......but also" is a pretty standard contrastive structure but somehow you are tangled up with it.  

Mary not only can type (as fast as Susan), she is also faster and more accurate. - there is nothing wrong or confusing about it.

Whatever...

  
Kooyeen  #439646  Tue, 06 Nov 07 09:48 PM

 Goodman wrote:

Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. <-- is ok. ---Hate to disgree with you but this is not ok in my book, although Clive deemed it "acceptable", noting that it usually is accompanied by adverbs like "merely/ just/ only".

Hi,
...hmm, Clive didn't say it's used with "only" though. But now I'm starting to have some doubts...

 Goodman wrote:
You wrote: Steel not only is as strong as wood, but it's also stronger. <-- doesn't make sense to me.

Let's change the material a little: Fiberglass is not only stronger than steel, it's also lighter. Now, does this sound better and make more sense to you?

You changed it a lot, not a little. You changed the adjective too.


Anyway, now I'm not so sure using "not only" is not ok. If you consider the following three examples, probably #2 is ok (no "but" and no "also")... but I think #3 is definitely odd.

1 - Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger.
2 - Steel is not only as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger.
3 - Steel is not only as strong as wood, but it's also stronger.


Could some natives tell me what they think? Thanks Smile [:)]
I'm afraid no one else is reading this thread though... Sad [:(]

  
Clive  #439651  Tue, 06 Nov 07 10:28 PM

Hi,

Fiberglass is not only stronger than steel, it's also lighter. This sounds fine.

Steel is not only as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. This sounds odd.

When you use 'not only' like this, you are setting up a 'contrasting pair', even if you don't actually say 'but'. Thus, when you say 'Not only A, (but) B', you are saying that both A and B are applicable. eg both 'stronger than steel' and 'lighter than steel' are applicable 

It sounds odd to say that a thing can be both 'as strong as steel' and 'stronger than steel'

Clive

  
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Goodman  #439660  Tue, 06 Nov 07 10:55 PM
 Kooyeen wrote:

 Goodman wrote:

Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. <-- is ok. ---Hate to disgree with you but this is not ok in my book, although Clive deemed it "acceptable", noting that it usually is accompanied by adverbs like "merely/ just/ only".

Hi,
...hmm, Clive didn't say it's used with "only" though. But now I'm starting to have some doubts...

 Goodman wrote:
You wrote: Steel not only is as strong as wood, but it's also stronger. <-- doesn't make sense to me.


Anyway, now I'm not so sure using "not only" is not ok. If you consider the following three examples, probably #2 is ok (no "but" and no "also")... but I think #3 is definitely odd.

1 - Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger.
2 - Steel is not only as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger.
3 - Steel is not only as strong as wood, but it's also stronger.


Could some natives tell me what they think? Thanks Smile [:)]
I'm afraid no one else is reading this thread though... Sad [:(]

Let's change the material a little: Fiberglass is not only stronger than steel, it's also lighter. Now, does this sound better and make more sense to you?

<<You changed it a lot, not a little. You changed the adjective too.>>

Yes, the content was changed, but the "is not only ....but also" structure remained which was the point of discussion, wasn't it?  As a learner, it's ok to be humble if we don't understand certain aspect of a subject.  Being persistent on one's own misunderstanding doesn't yield much fruits.

  
Kooyeen  #439669  Tue, 06 Nov 07 11:21 PM
Sorry in advace for the formatting... I didn't manage to change it.

Thanks a lot Clive, I see.
I had some doubts about sentence #2 because I was thinking of what you said earlier. You said that...
Steel is not as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. <-- is ok. And I understand why and how the stress should be.
Steel is not (just/merely) as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. <-- is ok. And I understand why and how the stress should be.

So after discussing "not only" with Goodman, I started to wonder whether "only" could be used the same way as "just/merely", instead of them. So, reading this again with the same intonation we would use for "just/merely", is it really not ok, as you just said?
Steel is not (only) as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger.


 Goodman wrote:

Yes, the content was changed, but the "is not only ....but also" structure remained which was the point of discussion, wasn't it?  As a learner, it's ok to be humble if we don't understand certain aspect of a subject.  Being persistent on one's own misunderstanding doesn't yeild much fruits.



Well, the point was not that structure, but that structure used this way or similat ways, wrongly:
Steel is not only as strong as wood, but it's also three times stronger.

The sentence "Fiberglass is not only stronger than steel, it's also lighter" is perfectly ok, because being stronger and being lighter are two compatible facts, but being as strong as wood and being stronger are not.
In the same way, "
Steel is not as strong as wood... It's actually three times stronger" is ok, because the two facts are compatible.

  
Goodman  #439676  Tue, 06 Nov 07 11:54 PM

<<<Well, the point was not that structure, but that structure used this way or similat ways, wrongly:
Steel is not only as strong as wood, but it's also three times stronger.>>>

 

Kooyeen,

The problem in the sentence with steel being the material was comparing it to wood, Naturally, steel is stroner than wood. So when we discussed  “steel not only is stronger than wood, it is also 3 times stronger” the whole sentence sounded redundant and offered nothing comparative or contrastive.  That’s the reason I changed the material to fiberglass which is better suited for this discussion. You are still being adamant that I am the one being wrong with my examples. I don’t have anymore energy to carry on this discussion further with you. So before I conclude, let me just give you one more to ponder on:

John not only is as stubborn as his father, he is also more temperamental,  ciao !Wink [;)]

  
Goodman  #439679  Tue, 06 Nov 07 11:57 PM
 Clive wrote:

Hi,

Fiberglass is not only stronger than steel, it's also lighter. This sounds fine.

Steel is not only as strong as wood. It's (actually) stronger. This sounds odd.

When you use 'not only' like this, you are setting up a 'contrasting pair', even if you don't actually say 'but'. Thus, when you say 'Not only A, (but) B', you are saying that both A and B are applicable. eg both 'stronger than steel' and 'lighter than steel' are applicable 

It sounds odd to say that a thing can be both 'as strong as steel' and 'stronger than steel'

Clive

Exactly my point!

  
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