would

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Anonymous  #521475  Sun, 01 Jun 08 02:17 AM

Hi,

I learned and think the modal 'would' is used for these purposes:

1) as a conditional element, 2) past form of the modal "will" and 3) to show repetition in the past

For the writing below, do a conditional element and the usage as a past form of "will" present? How about no.3? When we see the modal "would" being used in a sentence that has the scenario set in the past, would I be smart to assume it carries a sense of the past although at first and many readings of it may not let me knowt so easily?

Days later, she experienced pain. By June, her diet was limted to bread and water. Anything else would induce the abdominal pain. Thinking that it was her intestine that caused the pain, she went to ...          

Sorry, why does it have to be plural verbs?

1 in 10 Asians are infected with ...

1 in 4 people who have *** end up ... 

  
Mr Wordy  #521491  Sun, 01 Jun 08 03:26 AM

A) By June, her diet was limited to bread and water. Anything else would induce the abdominal pain. 

I haven't studied English grammar as systematically as you probably have, but to me the sense is 3 (repetition in the past). Look at this alternative:

B) By June, her diet was limited to bread and water. Anything else induced the abdominal pain. 

This means that if she ate anything else then she got the pain. If sentence B already means this, then what is the word "would" doing in sentence A? It can only be giving us the sense that this event had happened a number of times, and, presumably, that this is how she discovered that it induced the pain.

Part 2

1 in 10 Asians are infected with ...

This is an old "chestnut" (something that is debated over and over). My (British English) opinion is that "1 in 10 Asians are" is more natural (though I do not think "is" is incorrect). The plural "are" agrees "in spirit" with the subject, which obviously refers to many people, rather than needing to literally agree with "one". Others may take a different view.

  
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Marius Hancu  #521496  Sun, 01 Jun 08 04:01 AM
 Would:  Indicates something typical or repetitive in the past

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 # Indicating an action in the past that happened repeatedly or commonly.

In the winters, we would sit by the hole on the frozen lake and fish
for hours.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/would

--------- 

  
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CalifJim  #521553  Sun, 01 Jun 08 07:24 AM
Anonymous

For the writing below, do are both a conditional element and the usage as a past form of "will" present? How about no.3? When we I see the modal "would" being used in a sentence that has the scenario set in the past, would I be smart to assume it carries a sense of the past although at first and many readings of it may not let me knowt so easily?

Days later, she experienced pain. By June, her diet was limted to bread and water. Anything else would induce the abdominal pain. Thinking that it was her intestine that caused the pain, she went to ...   

As I understand the three categories you are interested in, I would say that this is an excellent example where all three are present.

As conditional:  (If) anything else (were ingested, it) would induce the abdominal pain.

As past of will:  Anything else will induce the pain in the past becomes Anything else would induce the pain.

As repetition in the past:  Anything else would induce the pain (every time she ingested it)

_____

Do not assume past time for would in all cases.  In the conditional pattern and in other structures, would often indicates present time. 

CJ 

  
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New2grammar  #521558  Sun, 01 Jun 08 07:36 AM

Mr. Wordy,

Could you help me understand why "the past tense of will" is not likely in the original sentence?

A) By June, her diet was limited to bread and water. Anything else would induce the abdominal pain. 

I haven't studied English grammar as systematically as you probably have, but to me the sense is 3 (repetition in the past). Look at this alternative:

 

If I change the tense to present, will is correct, I think.

Her diet is now limited to bread and water. Anything else will induce the abdominal pain.

  
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Marius Hancu  #521587  Sun, 01 Jun 08 11:55 AM
 >Could you help me understand why "the past tense of will" is not likely in the original sentence?

CJ is telling you that in his answer:

As past of will:  Anything else will induce the pain in the past becomes Anything else would induce the pain

You should not use will in a past context.  Buy Swan, Practical English Usage and read it.


  
Mr Wordy  #521650  Sun, 01 Jun 08 02:05 PM

New2grammar

Mr. Wordy,

Could you help me understand why "the past tense of will" is not likely in the original sentence?

[...]

If I change the tense to present, will is correct, I think.

Her diet is now limited to bread and water. Anything else will induce the abdominal pain.

You make a good point. I don't feel on very solid ground here, but I'll attempt an answer.

First let's compare:

1) Her diet is now limited to bread and water. Anything else induces the abdominal pain.

2) Her diet is now limited to bread and water. Anything else will induce the abdominal pain.

What is "will" doing in (2), that makes it different from (1)? To me, in some combination it: (a) reinforces the idea of cause-and-effect; (b) emphasises that it really will happen (as in "Anything else will induce the abdominal pain"); (c) weakly indicates the future tense.

Now look at:

3) By June, her diet was limited to bread and water. Anything else would induce the abdominal pain.

Senses (a), (b) and (c), transferred to the past, are, to me, weak or non-existent in (3), and nowhere near as strong as the sense that on several occasions she did eat something else, and that this did indeed induce the pain. And if there is no significant transferral of sense then it probably isn't useful to consider "would" in (3) as the past tense of "will" in (2).

It could be argued that "would" meaning repetition in the past is merely the past tense of "will" meaning repetition in the present. For example: "Boys will be boys"/"Boys would be boys". But I get little sense of repetition in the present in (2).

  
New2grammar  #521749  Sun, 01 Jun 08 06:32 PM

MH, CJ said all three are possible. My question was why Mr. Wordy preferred the repetitive in the past meaning over the others. Sorry if my question isn't clear to you.

 

  
New2grammar  #521750  Sun, 01 Jun 08 06:36 PM

Mr. Wordy, thanks for your attempt. The material you presented is probably beyond my capability to understand at this point. It's an interesting reply. Thank you again.

  
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