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Can I use "would" to replace all the "should" here?(in subordinate clauses)

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Viceidol  #489916  Mon, 17 Mar 08 02:05 PM

It's astonishing that she should say that sort of thing to you.

I was shocked that she shouldn't have invited Helen.

I'm sorry you should think I did it on purpose.

Do you think it's normal that the child should be so tired?

It was natural that they should want him to go to a good school.

May I ask if I can replace all the "should" with "would"?

Thank you for your answer.

  
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Marius Hancu  #489921  Mon, 17 Mar 08 02:17 PM
No, these are all putative should's, would can't be used without changing the meaning. Basically after "surprised, shocked, natural" you should be using should. See Swan, also do some searches for
putative should.
 

It's for some just a BrE usage, for some old-fashioned.  However, I found it in some  BrE contemporary fiction, thus I don't think it's obsolete at all.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1O28-putativeshould.html

http://thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/340600179/m/4681071924?r=4681071924#4681071924

http://thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/340600179/m/7646030383?r=7646030383#7646030383

  
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Viceidol  #490073  Mon, 17 Mar 08 11:10 PM

Yes, but in Practical English Usage should (4):in subordinate clauses the book says:

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2 reactions 

Should is also used in subordinate clauses after words expressing personal judgements and reactions, especially to facts which are already known or have already been mentioned.(This use, too, is more common in British than American English.)

It's astonishing that she should say that sort of thing to you.

I was shocked that she shouldn't have invited Helen.

I'm sorry you should think I did it on purpose.

Do you think it's normal that the child should be so tired?

In American English, would is usual in this kind of case.

It was natural that they would want him to go to a good school. (GB...that they should...)

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So that's the book says. But I'm doubtful that if we could really change all the "should" with "would", because I find some of them would be strange. So I came here to look for some opinion.

What do you think? Is the book really correct? Thanks again.

 

  
CalifJim  #490081  Tue, 18 Mar 08 12:04 AM
<>It's astonishing that she should say that sort of thing to you.  would also possible; virtually same meaning.

I was shocked that she shouldn't have invited Helen.  wouldn't seems unnatural, but almost possible.

I'm sorry you should think I did it on purpose.  would also possible, but the meaning is slightly different.

Do you think it's normal that the child should be so tired?  would possible, but slightly different meaning.

It was natural that they should want him to go to a good school.  would also possible; virtually same meaning.

 These are my reactions as a speaker of AmE.

The slight differences in meaning are impossible for me to characterize.  would just seems slightly more definite to me.  Sorry I can't be more specific.

CJ 

  
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Marius Hancu  #490098  Tue, 18 Mar 08 01:26 AM
 I  suggest you also read this thread in another forum:

 Adjectives and verbs usage with should

 http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/24690-adjectives-verbs-usage-should.html

one of the posters being our Mr. Pedantic (BrE)Smile 

  
Marius Hancu  #490101  Tue, 18 Mar 08 01:29 AM

Viceidol:

The putative should is rare nowadays in the AmE.

For present day alternatives in AmE, see the 2nd link in my original reply.  It's quite clear to me.

You can find it in period/older AmE articles, when the two grammars (AmE/BrE were more similar), such as this one from 1915:

 

CLERGYMEN DIFFER ON THE GERMAN NOTE; "Encouraging," Dr. Holmes ...

"I, for one, am not surprised that she should say this, the sub marine is the only instrument in her ;possession with which she can reat Britain on the sea. ...
  
Marius Hancu  #490105  Tue, 18 Mar 08 01:45 AM
CalifJim
<>It's astonishing that she should say that sort of thing to you.  would also possible; virtually same meaning.

I was shocked that she shouldn't have invited Helen.  wouldn't seems unnatural, but almost possible.

I'm sorry you should think I did it on purpose.  would also possible, but the meaning is slightly different.

Do you think it's normal that the child should be so tired?  would possible, but slightly different meaning.

It was natural that they should want him to go to a good school.  would also possible; virtually same meaning.

 These are my reactions as a speaker of AmE.

The slight differences in meaning are impossible for me to characterize.  would just seems slightly more definite to me.  Sorry I can't be more specific.

CJ 

Well, Jim, if you can't put those differences into words, what are we to say about the rest of the worldSmile

My readings are based on a remark a BrE speaker made to me in another forum some time ago (not on these examples). He said that in such contexts, should shows an element of chance, of happening, in comparison with would.

E.g.:

It's astonishing that she should say that sort of thing to you. My reading: it's astonishing that she happened to say that to you, that those words flew out of her mouth

It's astonishing that she would say that sort of thing to you. My reading: it's astonishing that she was willing to say that to you, that she put/placed purpose in saying that to you

<>  

 

  
Anonymous  #490109  Tue, 18 Mar 08 01:52 AM
As a speaker of British English, I'd say those phrases are all high-register / old fashioned.  Very few people speak like that and hardly anyone would write like that any more.

 In spoken word, some of them would simply be ellided:

I'm sorry you'd think I did it on purpose. 

It was natural that they'd want him to go to a good school. 

 

  
Marius Hancu  #490113  Tue, 18 Mar 08 02:04 AM
Anonymous
As a speaker of British English, I'd say those phrases are all high-register / old fashioned.  Very few people speak like that and hardly anyone would write like that any more.

You're probably right, but this is recent stuff (2001), by a (still) young established British writer:

http://www.contemporarywriters.com/authors/?p=auth22

--

But it was interesting that Gibbs, of  all people, should have been the one to notice it.

Jonathan Coe, The Rotters'  Club,  p. 40

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