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Mike Stevens

#602489 Mon, 05 Jan 04 03:02 PM

"Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, anddoes not describe any situation I recocognise within the UK."

"She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen ofPapua New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other ... and the Grenadines Tuvalu These countries each freely chose to keep the Queen as Head of Statewhen they became independent."

Not to mention the Channel Islands, which have never been part of the UK, but if which the Queen is Head of State. That's because they are the last remains of the Duchy of Normandy. Incidentally the three leopards arms nowadays ascribed to England were originally those of the Duchy of Normandy.

The Isle of Man is also not part of the UK, although our Queen is also the Lord of Man.

-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?

Mike Stevens

dcw

#602509 Mon, 05 Jan 04 03:46 PM

"Not to mention the Channel Islands, which have never been part of the UK, but if which the Queen is ... Duchy of Normandy. Incidentally the three leopards arms nowadays ascribed to England were originally those of the Duchy of Normandy."

Normandy has only two leopards. (That's "leopards" in the sense of "lions passant guardant", of course, not real leopards.)

David

dcw

R F

#602510 Mon, 05 Jan 04 03:46 PM

"From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American as a Texan is."

I'm not sure Texans consider themselves part of the USA, but okay...

"The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American. In the same way, Poles and Italians are ... that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers on that continent to also use the name."

This is a common Error: the idea that "United States of America" came first, and calling the people in what *became* the (initial part of the) USA "Americans" came second. Not so: they were called "Americans" before 1776.

TFOTMI, "America" has more than one meaning. The USA-type of "American" shouldn't object to the desire of the Peruvian (say) to call himself an "American" when speaking English. But, by the same Metrocard, no Peruvian or European should object to a USA-type of American using "American" to mean "of the US". Non-Americans (that is, non-US-type Americans) should endeavo(u)r to understand the US usage of "American", and not to angrily and bitterly condemn it.

I've argued (in AUE) that "America" has a slightly different meaning from "United States". "The US" is the political entity, the polity, the "state", the current official politico-legal structure. "America" is the *nation*, not the *state*: the people, the land, a romantic-poetic view of the people who happen to call themselves "Americans" in the US sense and the "country" (not the "state") they call home. It might be a little bit like how "the UK" is a name that will not survive the abolition of the monarchy, but "Britain" and "England" etc. :-) will remain.

In my view, "an American" in the US sense is broader than just the body of American (more properly, US) citizens. An immigrant to the US who is not yet a citizen but who has come to identify closely with the people and culture of the US (more properly of "America") is, in my book, an "American".

R F

Peter Duncanson

#602524 Mon, 05 Jan 04 03:53 PM

"She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, ... and Nevis St. Lucia St. Vincent and the Grenadines Tuvalu"

"You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man."

I thought of them but they are not fully independent states. Nome of them is a member of the Commonwealth or of the United Nations.

Isle of Man: http://www.gov.im/cso/crown/office_gov.xml The Queen is the United Kingdom's Head of State and is also the Lord of Mann. ... The Lieutenant Governor has many different duties to perform and derives his powers directly from the Crown, from United Kingdom Acts of Parliament in respect of certain specific functions (e.g. Nationality and Immigration); and from Acts of Tynwald or Customary Law.

also: http://www.gov.im/deptindex/FR_CheckParents.asp?article=sectoral.html The United Kingdom is the Island's principal neighbour and is constitutionally responsible for the Island's international relations.

Jersey: http://www.gov.je/government/govassembly.asp Constitutionally, Jersey is a dependency of the Crown, owing allegiance to the Sovereign, but without incorporation into the United Kingdom. Jersey is self-governing in internal matters, but the UK Government is responsible for defence, overseas representation and international affairs generally.

Guernsey: No information of the website, but I understand its status is similar to that of Jersey. http://www.gov.gg/

-- Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)

Peter Duncanson

Articles

Andrew Davidson

#602525 Mon, 05 Jan 04 04:05 PM

"From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much anAmerican as a Texan is."

"I'm not sure Texans consider themselves part of the USA, but okay..."

Yes, I thought that might be contentious.

"The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a ... of otherdwellers on that continent to also use the name."

"This is a common Error: the idea that "United States of America" came first, and calling the people in what *became* the (initial part of the) USA "Americans" came second. Not so: they were called "Americans" before 1776."

True, but they were called "Americans" because they dwelt on the continent of America, along with all the other inhabitants. Only later did they start to use that term as if it might be exclusive to citizens of the USA.

"TFOTMI, "America" has more than one meaning. The USA-type of "American" shouldn't object to the desire of the Peruvian (say) ... people who happen to call themselves "Americans" in the US sense and the "country" (not the "state") they call home."

This all seems very reasonable to me. I think I agree with it. However, when I say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate between parts of that continent, I will use terms such as "USA", "Bolivia", "North America", "South America", "Canada", etc.

"It might be a little bit like how "the UK" is a name that will not survive the abolition of the monarchy, but "Britain" and "England" etc. :-) will remain."

If I am asked "where are you from?", I reply "England". If I am asked for my nationality, I say "British". If I am completing a Web form or other documentation, the choice is normally "United Kingdom". Despite all of the foregoing, I am very clear on one point: the country where I live is called England.

I recall a lady I worked with in Glasgow (Scotland) who was learning German from a cassette course. The lesson asked "Sind sie Deutsch", and she was required to answer "Nein, ich bin Englander". She, quite rightly, responded "Nein, ich bin Schottlanderin".

-- Andrew Davidson

Andrew Davidson

Common Errors

Richard Maurer

#602538 Mon, 05 Jan 04 05:13 PM

>
In the "before" time, they were American relative to the British Empire. Letters to the king used the phrase "your American subjects". It all made sense. When the USA became a separate country, people kept using "American", but there was no longer anything for the term to be relative to. 200 years later, we still need a good nickname.

-- -- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. --

Richard Maurer

Synonyms

Molly Mockford

#602539 Mon, 05 Jan 04 06:43 PM

in (Email Removed):

"I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of it. My post was just a ... or Wales, or.. Before you explain, that too is a spoof and I am aware of her full title."

And, presumably, of the fact that it was the royal house of Scotland which took over England, rather than vice versa. However, the current incumbent should really be known as Queen Elizabeth the 1st of Scotland and 2nd of England, along the lines of the Stuart monarchs. (No names in between have led to any discrepancy in numbering.) -- Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Molly Mockford

#602552 Mon, 05 Jan 04 06:50 PM

in :

"She is also seaparetly Queen of"

(snip)

"You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man."

And of course Sark, which is held by the Seigneur in fief direct from the Queen herself (although usually the Privy Council act for her in this). -- Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Molly Mockford

Ross Howard

#602553 Mon, 05 Jan 04 07:19 PM

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 18:43:51 +00, Molly Mockford (Email Removed) wrought:

"in (Email Removed):"

"I thank you for the explanation although I was well ... a spoof and I am aware of her full title."

"And, presumably, of the fact that it was the royal house of Scotland which took over England, rather than vice ... of England, along the lines of the Stuart monarchs. (No names in between have led to any discrepancy in numbering.)"

Would "Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland" solve all problems -- of numbering or otherwise?

-- Ross Howard

Ross Howard

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