http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here. <font color=red>DO NOT post paragraphs and compositions here. Post them in our <a href="http://www.englishforums.com/English/EssayReportCompositionWriting/Forum9.htm"><b>Essay, Report and Composition Writing Forum</b></a>.</font>enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#690175Mon, 23 Mar 2009 23:19:36 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:690175MrPedantic0http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#690175http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-690175.xmlHowever, the response &quot;I gave it to he who came to the door.&quot; makes perfect sense. No; that would be incorrect. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#690080Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:43:34 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:690080Anonymous1http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#690080http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-690080.xmlI believe you are correct. Generally, &quot;he&quot; equals who, and &quot;him&quot; equals whom - &quot;To whom should I give the package?&quot; &quot;Give the package to him&quot;. But here, you would rephrase the sentence to read: &quot;Give the package to he who comes to the door&quot;. The problem here is not the use of whoever v. whomever. It is the nature &quot;comes to the door&quot;. It is part of a noun clause, as you state. For example, after your delivery was complete, if you were asked : &quot;To whom did you give the package?&quot; The answer &quot;I gave it to him.&quot; makes no sense. However, the response &quot;I gave it to he who came to the door.&quot; makes perfect sense.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647680Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:647680CalifJim2http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647680http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-647680.xmlAre #3 and #4 also acceptable? No. CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647666Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:647666sitifan3http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647666http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-647666.xml1. ...give this book to whoever needs it. 2. ...give this book to whomever you like. 3. ...give this book to who needs it. &nbsphttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647326Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:647326CalifJim4http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647326http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-647326.xmlGive the prize to whomever was chosen by the panel. Wrong. Give the prize to whoever was chosen by the panel. CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647304Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:647304Anonymous5http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/8/cxcp/Post.htm#647304http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-647304.xmlI was taught that when you use &quot;TO&quot; &quot;FOR&quot; or &quot;BY&quot; you always use WHOM. For me that was a good lesson.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#647152Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:647152Anonymous6http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#647152http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-647152.xmlA very interesting thread! I think that English is inconsistent here, because it doesn&#39;t match how you handle personal pronouns in a similar context. Give the prize to whomever was chosen by the panel. Give the prize to whoever deserves it most. Give the prize to him who was chosen by the panel. Give the prize to him who deserves it most. Unlike the situation with whoever/whomever, you use the object pronoun &quot;him&quot; in both of these cases, ie you wouldn&#39;t say Give the prize to he who deserves it most.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578396Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:578396MrPedantic7http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578396http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-578396.xmlAnother method is to replace the pronoun with &quot;the person who/the person whom&quot;. If &quot;the person who&quot; fits, use &quot;whoever&quot; in the clause. If &quot;the person whom&quot; fits, you can use &quot;whomever&quot;. Best wishes, MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578103Mon, 25 May 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:578103AlpheccaStars8http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578103http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-578103.xml&quot;Whoever&quot; is correct. The indirect object of the verb in the main clause is the entire noun clause, not just the head of the clause. Directly quoted from &quot;Cliff&#39;s notes&quot; (sorry for the long inset) Pronoun case in subordinate clause Who, whom, whoever, whomever. In deciding which case of who you should use in a clause, remember this important rule: The case of the pronoun is governed by the role it plays in its own clause, not by its relation to the rest of the sentence. Choosing the right case of pronoun can be especially confusing because the pronoun may appear to have more than one function. Look at the following sentence. They gave the money to whoever presented the winning ticket. At first, you may...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578098Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:578098MrPedantic9http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578098http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-578098.xmlOnly the wind, Anon; and the mouse in the wainscot.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578089Mon, 25 May 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:578089Anonymous10http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#578089http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-578089.xmlThat would be... who&#39;s there? ;-Dhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#570790Mon, 25 May 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:570790MrPedantic11http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#570790http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-570790.xmlThough in some cases, &quot;whoever&quot; correctly follows a preposition: 1. She can share the document with whoever wants to read it . (Here, the entire underlined phrase is the complement of &quot;with&quot;, while &quot;whoever&quot; is the subject of &quot;wants&quot;.) MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#570736Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:570736Huevos12http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#570736http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-570736.xmlAdobe have launched their new text editor Buzzword. Their Welcome to Buzzword document includes the sentence &quot; The owner can share the document with whomever she wishes.&quot; A pity they didn&#39;t read this forum. And what&#39;s &#39;she&#39; doing in this sentence? That sentence is fine. &quot; She &quot; is the subject of the subordinate clause. The antecedent of &quot; she &quot; is &quot; the owner &quot;. Also it&#39;s obvious whom is correct because it follows a preposition (always accusative, never nominative).http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#570728Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:570728Anonymous13http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#570728http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-570728.xmlAdobe have launched their new text editor Buzzword. Their Welcome to Buzzword document includes the sentence &quot; The owner can share the document with whomever she wishes.&quot; A pity they didn&#39;t read this forum. And what&#39;s &#39;she&#39; doing in this sentence?http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#550765Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:550765Anonymous14http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/7/cxcp/Post.htm#550765http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-550765.xmlThere is an old joke passed around by teachers of grammar. Saint Peter in heaven heard a knock on the door. &quot;Whose there?&quot; he asked. &quot;It is I,&quot; was the reply. &quot;Heck!&quot; said Saint Peter. &quot;Another one of those damn grammar teachers.&quot; Grammatically, it is correct to say, &quot;It is I.&quot; But not one in a thousand says it. Most say, &quot;It&#39;s me.&quot; St. Peter must really hate to see the grammer teachers if he uses &quot;whose&quot; there!!!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#480409Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:480409Anonymous15http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#480409http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-480409.xmlThis last post from CJ was the clearest explanation, and it makes the most sense. Not to mention it described what I already thought was the correct answer! dtshttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#470306Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:470306Anonymous16http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#470306http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-470306.xmlExactly!...LOL! That's perfect...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#432658Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:432658Anonymous17http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#432658http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-432658.xmlThis was discussed on an episode of "The Office" a couple nights back and I was curious to see what the difference was. After reading all of that I still don't have a clue. Rmcchttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#406010Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:406010Anonymous18http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#406010http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-406010.xmlwow thanks that was very helpful!!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#400250Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:400250Anonymous19http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#400250http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-400250.xmlThank you! You are so very, 'SMART'!!!!!!!!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#386390Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:386390Bokeh20http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#386390http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-386390.xmlAnonymous wrote: "it is I" in an informal spoken conversation will either make you sound stuffy or foreign. It should be " it is he " but do people really speak like that? It sounds terrible!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#386376Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:386376Anonymous21http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#386376http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-386376.xmlUnderstand, we English speakers take liberties with grammar when speaking informally. An educated English speaker will use correct grammar in either a written situation or a formal spoken situation. Using phrases such as "it is I" in an informal spoken conversation will either make you sound stuffy or foreign.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#378850Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:12 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378850Grammar Geek22http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#378850http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-378850.xmlNo, Anon, that's not how it works. Tone of voice has no effect the grammatical choice of whoever vs. whomever . Truly, the correct choice is "whoever" regardless of the tone or what was in the package. Please read through this incredibly long string of posts and see that whoever=the person who.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#378843Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:378843Anonymous23http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/6/cxcp/Post.htm#378843http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-378843.xmlI think it depends on the importance of the package and whether it was stated with a dismissive tone. e.g., if the statement in question were proceeded by: "Whomever receives the package is insignificant.", would you maintain your objection?http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#371775Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:371775MrPedantic24http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#371775http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-371775.xmlThat's not quite how it's used, Anon. Use "whomever" where it can be replaced by "the person whom". Use "whoever" where it can be replaced by "the person who". Thus in your examples: 1. Either Mark, Jill, or Sam will be coming for this package; you will give it to whomever arrives. — No; "you will give it to the person who arrives"; thus whoever . 2. You will give this package to whoever comes to the door. — Yes; "you will give this to the person who comes to the door; thus whoever . 3. I'll go with whoever wishes to come with me. — Yes; "I'll go with the person who wishes to come with me"; thus whoever . 4. I'll go with whomever wishes to come with me. — No; "I'll go with the person who wishes to come with...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#371691Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:371691Anonymous25http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#371691http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-371691.xml"Whomever" is used when the recipients, however many, are known before hand. e.g. Either Mark, Jill, or Sam will be coming for this package; you will give it to whomever arrives. "Whoever" is used when the recipient will be unkown. e.g. You will give this package to whoever comes to the door. I'll choose to go wherever I like and with whom. (you will know the person as you will have chosen to go with them) I'll go with whoever wishes to come with me. (at this moment you don't know the person who might wish to go with you) I'll go with whomever wishes to come with me. (you'll know from an already determined list who might wish to go with you) I'm not very good at explaining things but I hope you'll understand...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#351520Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:351520Anonymous26http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#351520http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-351520.xmlI concur with your analysis. If the suggested responses were right, what would the subject of "comes to the door be"-- An object?http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#340103Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:340103MrPedantic27http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#340103http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-340103.xmlHello Copasetic, Welcome to English Forums! I would trust your ear: 1. It might be good for X to do Y. X is indeed the object (or complement) of the preposition "for"; in your example, X = "Jack and whoever else is in contact with the client". Like "what", "whoever" can play a grammatical role in two clauses. And just as "what" in such a context can be expressed as two elements ("that which"), so "whoever" can be expressed as "the person who(m)"/"any person who(m)". Thus in a sentence like yours, 2. P might be the case for is Q. the first element ("the person") relates to the first clause, and serves as the object of the preposition, while the second element ("who") relates to the second clause, and serves as the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#340098Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:340098Copasetic28http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#340098http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-340098.xmlMrPedantic wrote: Hello Guest In both cases, 'whoever' is grammatically correct: 1. ...whoever is chosen... Here, 'whoever' is the subject of 'is'. 2. ...to whoever makes... Here, 'whoever' is the subject of 'makes'. As a previous poster has mentioned, you can test for case by substituting 'the person who/whom' for 'whoever/whomever' in such sentences. MrP OK, I have a slightly more complicated test sentence: "It might be good for Jack and else is in contact with the client to ensure that we get credit for the report." My American ear (as wrong as it often is) says that 'whoever' is correct because it is the subject complement of 'is in contact with the client', and it passes the very clever...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#312352Mon, 25 May 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:312352MrPedantic29http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#312352http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-312352.xmlTeo wrote: MrPedantic wrote: Yes, a "carer" is someone who looks after e.g. an elderly or disabled person (often a relative), without pay. Apparently there are 6m or so in the UK, of which about 60% are women. Did you mean 6 million? Indeed. In fact, it may well be 6,000,001 by now. MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#311673Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311673Teo30http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#311673http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311673.xmlWhl626 wrote: To understand this well, convert the ' whomever ' into ' any person who ' Give the package to any person who comes to the door. ( everything will be clear now ) convert the ' whomever ' into ' any person whom'http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#311668Mon, 25 May 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311668Teo31http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#311668http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311668.xmlAnonymous wrote: Even though it's "give the package to him" - which would require a "whom". But "he" or "she" (whoever) is the subject of the verb comes. Therefore it's whoever Even though it's "give the package to him" - which would require the objective case . But "he" or "she" (whoever) is the subject of the verb comes. Therefore it's whoever.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#311663Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311663Teo32http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/5/cxcp/Post.htm#311663http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311663.xmlCalifJim wrote: The correct answer is "Give the package to whoever comes to the door". Give it to whomever you like best. (You like him best.) Give it to whoever pays the highest price. ( He pays the highest price.) It is whoever you think it is. It is whoever you think has made a mistake. It is whoever has made the mistake. It is whoever is knocking at the door. It is whomever they designated the leader. It is whomever you believe they sent. Give it to who(m)ever you like best. (You like him best.) Give it to whoever pays the highest price. ( He pays the highest price.) It is whoever you think it is. It is whoever you think has made a mistake. It is whoever has made the mistake. It is whoever is knocking at the door. It is...http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311660Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311660Teo33http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311660http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311660.xmlMrPedantic wrote: Yes, a "carer" is someone who looks after e.g. an elderly or disabled person (often a relative), without pay. Apparently there are 6m or so in the UK, of which about 60% are women. Did you mean 6 million?http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311659Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311659Teo34http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311659http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311659.xmlThe title of salutatorian goes to whomever/whoever has the second highest academic average. Whom/Who did you say this package was for? The title of salutatorian goes to whoever (=anyone who) has the second highest academic average. Correct! The title of salutatorian goes to whomever (=anyone whom) has the second highest academic average. Grammatically incorrect! But as commom as "Between you and I " . Whom did you say this package was for? Whom was this package for? Both are grammatically correct but not common in ordinary usage. Who did you say this package was for? Who was this package for? Both are correct and very common!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311641Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311641MrPedantic35http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311641http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311641.xmlAnonymous wrote: Although English is not my vernacular language, I believe that "whomever" is correct. For example, you give something to "someone." Someone cannot be nominative subject; whence "give this to "whomever" is correct. Lesly Guest answered the question perfectly in the original post, Anon: "Whoever comes to the door" is a noun clause that is the object of the preposition "to," actually functioning as an indirect object in this sentence. Within the clause, the subject is "whoever." By virtue of the fact that it is the subject, it has to be in the nominative case - whoever, rather than whomever . MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311623Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311623Grammar Geek36http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311623http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311623.xmlLesly, thank you for trying to make a contribution on this, but I would suggest you read the preceding four pages of posts. You are correct that if it were simply "to someone" it would be "to whom." (You gave it to whom?) But that is not the construction in this case. In any case, welcome to the forums!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311612Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:311612Anonymous37http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#311612http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-311612.xmlAlthough English is not my vernacular language, I believe that "whomever" is correct. For example, you give something to "someone." Someone cannot be nominative subject; whence "give this to "whomever" is correct. Leslyhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283745Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:283745MrPedantic38http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283745http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-283745.xmlHello Clive Yes, a "carer" is someone who looks after e.g. an elderly or disabled person (often a relative), without pay. Apparently there are 6m or so in the UK, of which about 60% are women. I think they were first named when they became a noticeably large group... MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283742Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:283742Clive39http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283742http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-283742.xmlA couple of trivial and irrelevant things. Hi anonymous person, no , it didn't. in fact i think it's better to be more formal. Your remark seems ironic to me because of the complete lack of capitals. Was this deliberate? Did I just misread your joke? Hi MrP, someone must speak for patients and carers . I don't think I've heard this word before. For a moment, I thught it was a misspelling of 'careers'. I know a 'caregiver' gives care. Does a 'carer' simply . . . care? Is this some new form of politically correct speech? Best wishes, Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283718Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:283718Marius Hancu40http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283718http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-283718.xmlMrPedantic wrote: Misuse of "whom" and its derivatives is also not uncommon. The British MP Glenda Jackson is a notable offender, e.g. Hey, I've been out of touch with her career lately. I didn't know the actress is an MP these days, but she is!http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283717Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:283717MrPedantic41http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/4/cxcp/Post.htm#283717http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-283717.xmlDiamondrg wrote: So using 'whom' in speech marks one as non-native? Can you say it is best to reserve it for 'writing'? I would agree with JL. "Whom...?" is relatively rare in native speech, but by no means unknown. On the other hand, "whom" after a preposition is relatively common. Misuse of "whom" and its derivatives is also not uncommon. The British MP Glenda Jackson is a notable offender, e.g. 'I wish to ask my hon. Friend the Minister a question, and I hope that she can reassure me. It would be good if the chairmen of the panels were independent, but whomsoever serves on them, it is important that someone must speak for patients and carers.' (Hansard, 14 Jan 2003) (I've heard her do this on several occasions....http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#283114Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:283114Anonymous42http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#283114http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-283114.xmlMrPedantic wrote: Anonymous wrote: in fact now i realized that I'm ok with that one The title of salutatorian goes to whoever has the second highest academic average. (correct me if i'm wrong) Spot on. But what about the second one: Whom/Who did you say this package was for? i'm soving some SAT prep. questions and the sentece is given like this: Whom did you say this package was for? and you should spot the mistake. i think that it's ok like this, but the answer is that whom is wrong. Very few people would say "Whom...for?". "Who...for?" is certainly the normal usage. But I would not say that "whom" was "wrong"; simply unusual. Did the question specify "ordinary usage"? MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282925Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282925J Lewis43http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282925http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282925.xmlCertainly in BrE it's mainly reserved for writing. The use of "whom" sounds quite formal, but then formal people exist! It's up to you when and whether you relax the rules, but it's best to make this decision when you're living in daily contact with native speakers.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282919Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282919Diamondrg44http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282919http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282919.xmlSo using 'whom' in speech marks one as non-native? Can you say it is best to reserve it for 'writing'?http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282835Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282835MrPedantic45http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282835http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282835.xmlAnonymous wrote: in fact now i realized that I'm ok with that one The title of salutatorian goes to whoever has the second highest academic average. (correct me if i'm wrong) Spot on. But what about the second one: Whom/Who did you say this package was for? i'm soving some SAT prep. questions and the sentece is given like this: Whom did you say this package was for? and you should spot the mistake. i think that it's ok like this, but the answer is that whom is wrong. Very few people would say "Whom...for?". "Who...for?" is certainly the normal usage. But I would not say that "whom" was "wrong"; simply unusual. Did the question specify "ordinary usage"? MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282663Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282663J Lewis46http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282663http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282663.xmlI've been wanting to start a thread on this "whomever" for a long time; I've seen "whomever" used a lot of times when it should have been "whoever", so I'm glad to see the question settled. The British are less correct than the Americans on this point and rarely use "whom" and "whomever" in speech.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282640Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282640Anonymous47http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282640http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282640.xmlin fact now i realized that I'm ok with that one The title of salutatorian goes to whoever has the second highest academic average. (correct me if i'm wrong) But what about the second one: Whom/Who did you say this package was for? i'm soving some SAT prep. questions and the sentece is given like this: Whom did you say this package was for? and you should spot the mistake. i think that it's ok like this, but the answer is that whom is wrong.http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282420Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282420MrPedantic48http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282420http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282420.xmlAnonymous wrote: what about this The title of salutatorian goes to whomever/whoever has the second highest academic average. Would you like to try first, Anon? MrPhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282304Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:09:13 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:282304Anonymous49http://www.englishforums.com/English/WhoeverVsWhomever/3/cxcp/Post.htm#282304http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-282304.xmlWhom/Who did you say this package was for?