ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:21:09 GMT

advoca

There is an old joke passed around by teachers of grammar. Saint Peter in heaven heard a knock on the door. "Whose there?" he asked. "It is I," was the reply. "Heck!" said Saint Peter. "Another one of those damn grammar teachers."

Grammatically, it is correct to say, "It is I." But not one in a thousand says it. Most say, "It's me."

St. Peter must really hate to see the grammer teachers if he uses "whose" there!!!

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:23:11 GMT

This last post from CJ was the clearest explanation, and it makes the most sense. Not to mention it described what I already thought was the correct answer!

dts

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:47:03 GMT

Exactly!...LOL! That's perfect...

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Sat, 20 Oct 2007 08:51:36 GMT

This was discussed on an episode of "The Office" a couple nights back and I was curious to see what the difference was. After reading all of that I still don't have a clue.

Rmcc

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 03:40:46 GMT

wow thanks that was very helpful!!

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 08:45:30 GMT

Thank you! You are so very, 'SMART'!!!!!!!!

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Bokeh — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:39:18 GMT

Anonymous wrote:
"it is I" in an informal spoken conversation will either make you sound stuffy or foreign.

It should be "it is he" but do people really speak like that? It sounds terrible!

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:05:56 GMT

Understand, we English speakers take liberties with grammar when speaking informally. An educated English speaker will use correct grammar in either a written situation or a formal spoken situation. Using phrases such as "it is I" in an informal spoken conversation will either make you sound stuffy or foreign.

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Grammar Geek — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:18:33 GMT

No, Anon, that's not how it works. Tone of voice has no effect the grammatical choice of whoever vs. whomever.

Truly, the correct choice is "whoever" regardless of the tone or what was in the package. Please read through this incredibly long string of posts and see that whoever=the person who.

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 04:07:39 GMT

I think it depends on the importance of the package and whether it was stated with a dismissive tone.

e.g., if the statement in question were proceeded by: "Whomever receives the package is insignificant.", would you maintain your objection?

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

MrPedantic — Mon, 28 May 2007 22:25:47 GMT

That's not quite how it's used, Anon.

Use "whomever" where it can be replaced by "the person whom".

Use "whoever" where it can be replaced by "the person who".

Thus in your examples:

1. Either Mark, Jill, or Sam will be coming for this package; you will give it to whomever arrives.

â No; "you will give it to the person who arrives"; thus whoever.

2. You will give this package to whoever comes to the door.

â Yes; "you will give this to the person who comes to the door; thus whoever.

3. I'll go with whoever wishes to come with me.

â Yes; "I'll go with the person who wishes to come with me"; thus whoever.

4. I'll go with whomever wishes to come with me.

â No; "I'll go with the person who wishes to come with me"; thus whoever.

Cf.

5. We will be happy with whoever the voters select as President.

â "we will be happy with the person whom the voters select as President"; thus whomever.

All the best,

MrP

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Mon, 28 May 2007 16:49:53 GMT

"Whomever" is used when the recipients, however many, are known before hand.

e.g. Either Mark, Jill, or Sam will be coming for this package; you will give it to whomever arrives.

"Whoever" is used when the recipient will be unkown.

e.g. You will give this package to whoever comes to the door.

I'll choose to go wherever I like and with whom. (you will know the person as you will have chosen to go with them)
I'll go with whoever wishes to come with me. (at this moment you don't know the person who might wish to go with you)
I'll go with whomever wishes to come with me. (you'll know from an already determined list who might wish to go with you)

I'm not very good at explaining things but I hope you'll understand what I mean.

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:13:30 GMT

I concur with your analysis. If the suggested responses were right, what would the subject of "comes to the door be"-- An object?

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

MrPedantic — Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:48:39 GMT

Hello Copasetic,

Welcome to English Forums!

I would trust your ear:

1. It might be good for X to do Y.

X is indeed the object (or complement) of the preposition "for"; in your example, X = "Jack and whoever else is in contact with the client".

Like "what", "whoever" can play a grammatical role in two clauses. And just as "what" in such a context can be expressed as two elements ("that which"), so "whoever" can be expressed as "the person who(m)"/"any person who(m)". Thus in a sentence like yours,

2. P might be the case for [whoever] is Q.

the first element ("the person") relates to the first clause, and serves as the object of the preposition, while the second element ("who") relates to the second clause, and serves as the subject of the verb.

(Which is a long-winded way of saying what you've already said.)

All the best,

MrP

Re: Whomever vs. whoever

Copasetic — Sat, 17 Mar 2007 00:21:40 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:
Hello Guest

In both cases, 'whoever' is grammatically correct:

1. ...whoever is chosen...

Here, 'whoever' is the subject of 'is'.

2. ...to whoever makes...

Here, 'whoever' is the subject of 'makes'.

As a previous poster has mentioned, you can test for case by substituting 'the person who/whom' for 'whoever/whomever' in such sentences.

MrP

OK, I have a slightly more complicated test sentence:

"It might be good for Jack and [whoever/whomever] else is in contact with the client to ensure that we get credit for the report."

My American ear (as wrong as it often is) says that 'whoever' is correct because it is the subject complement of 'is in contact with the client', and it passes the very clever test given already in this thread of replacing 'the person who/whom' for 'whoever/whomever' (if you ignore the 'else'). Am I right to trust my ear (and the test)?

But if that is the case, can someone explain it grammatically? The way I see it, the 'to ensure' clause is a 'to-infinitive' complement clause of 'It might be good', and the 'for Jack ... client' is adverbial expressing the 'to-infinitive' clause's agency. 'Jack and whoever else... client' is then the object clause of the preposition 'for'. Does that make sense? I think it's time for me to purchase a comprehensive grammar.