ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: simple past vs present perfect

CalifJim — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:13:26 GMT

Maybe it's only something that happens as you approach the five-digit mark

Surely you jest. You don't look a day over three digits!

CJ

Re: simple past vs present perfect

CalifJim — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:10:37 GMT

<<Do average Americans make a clear distinction between the simple past and present perfect Yes. or is it only for professors, teachers, journalists, and the like? No, not just for academics.

I know that they use simple past with YET and ALREADY...when they should use the present perfect. Am I missing something...Where language is concerned, we are all missing a lot most of the time. It's a very complex topic. Am I only seeing the tip of an iceberg? Like the rest of us, you probably are. >>

The tenses mean the same things whether it's British or American English. It's just that Americans (It may be a cultural difference) tend on average to see events as definitely past when the British may feel that they still have relevance for the present. The choice, remember, is often not a matter of "one is correct; the other incorrect", but "which tense communicates best what's in my mind at this moment of speaking?"

Nevertheless, there are many situations -- possibly the majority -- where the same tense (past or present perfect) is chosen by all speakers of English, regardless of which variety of English they speak.

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Kooyeen — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:57:49 GMT

Yankee wrote:
Have you forgotten sentences such as "Jeet yet?"

I've seen that in the book I read, the one about American pronunciation. Ann Cook wrote: "Jeet yet?" - "No, nah chet"

PS: I usually have no problems when I post.

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:54:34 GMT

I have certainly started to highlight and copy before hitting post, but I have not gone back two screens to refresh. Good idea. I just go back one screen and paste and post. Sometimes it works and sometimes I get the message about not allowing duplicate posts.

Maybe it's only something that happens as you approach the five-digit mark

Re: simple past vs present perfect

CalifJim — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:49:24 GMT

I tried to respond about five times, agreeing that in negation and in questions, we do use simple past, and that I was thinking of affirmative statements. I kept getting an error message and my original, better post was lost.

Did you try this yet?

Before hitting the post button.
1. Highlight and copy your post.
2. Hit POST.
3. If the system gives you "Unable to serve your request":
      3a. Go back two screens to the post you were answering.
      3b. Refresh the screen.
      3c. Check to see if your post came through. (It may have in spite of the error.)
      3d. If the post didn't come through:
             3d1. Hit Reply again.
             3d2. Paste your copied post.
             3d3. Hit POST.

Repeat step 3 until you finally get through.

I have had to repeat this process regularly for years. I'm surprised that you seem to see this happen so seldom.

CJ

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Yankee — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:23:48 GMT

YES! lol

Have you seen any of mine by any chance?

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:51:55 GMT

Like those socks that disappear from the dryer?

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Yankee — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:45:29 GMT

Hi Barb

I've had some difficulties posting this morning, too. So far mainly just sluggishness, though.
I also noticed a thread in which mine was the only response, but the thread is listed as having 2 responses.
Maybe one or more of your lost posts is floating around in some as yet undiscovered dimension of cyberspace.

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:31:14 GMT

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Goodman — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:16:27 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:

Because with words like "should" - realize that how English is used will vary, without one being wrong and one being right. It seems that Americans are more likely to use simple past when either would do, but the present perfect is alive and well.

So, that said, where have you heard simple past used with "yet"? It would sound quite odd to my ears. Especially beacause "yet" is often used in the negative: I haven't seen that movie yet. How can you have possible heard that used in the simple past? I ain't saw that movie yet?

Does simple past with already sound so odd to everyone? I already fed the dog today; don't give him more food now.

Hi Barb,

<<where have you heard simple past used with "yet"? It would sound quite odd to my ears.>>> I have to agree with you on this!

But "yet" is often used in positive context as well, and the construction should be present perfect. Consider the following:

"Have you been to his house yet?"

"Have you eaten yet?"

"Has she arrived yet, her speech is up next!"

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Yankee — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:58:01 GMT

Barb, we use 'yet' quite often with the simple past tense -- in interrogative and negative sentences. Have you forgotten sentences such as "Jeet yet?"
(Did you eat yet?)

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:44:10 GMT

Because with words like "should" - realize that how English is used will vary, without one being wrong and one being right. It seems that Americans are more likely to use simple past when either would do, but the present perfect is alive and well.

So, that said, where have you heard simple past used with "yet"? It would sound quite odd to my ears. Especially beacause "yet" is often used in the negative: I haven't seen that movie yet. How can you have possible heard that used in the simple past? I ain't saw that movie yet?

Does simple past with already sound so odd to everyone? I already fed the dog today; don't give him more food now.

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Magic79 — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:12:34 GMT

Sorry Cali for using the wrong pronoun.

Thanks Grammar.

So my discourse grammar thing was not quite right and both simple past and past perfect can be used depending on whether we know when or whether it was pretty recent or relevant. It's all about how we percieve the distance and relevance of the verb "ordered."

I have a question:

Do average Americans make a clear distinction between the simple past and present perfect or is it only for professors, teachers, journalists, and the like?

I know that they use simple past with YET and ALREADY...when they should use the present perfect. Am I missing something...Am I only seeing the tip of an iceberg?

Re: simple past vs present perfect

CalifJim — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:28:18 GMT

... ~~her~~ his help.

<<Are the books we ordered/have ordered used by any other university here?

Simple past or present perfect or both with different meanings?

It seems to me that discourse grammar forces the use of "have ordered" because the question is in the present and the following phrase "we have ordered" that describes the books should be in the present too. No, not necessarily; the verb order is in a subordinate clause describing the books. The use of the books by other universities can be a present state of affairs even though the books were ordered years ago.

Compare: The people we met last week are now waiting in the lobby of the hotel. >>

To my ear the present perfect is actually somewhat anomalous here (though not entirely wrong). If "we" ordered the books, we know when we ordered them. The ordering took place at a specific and known time. These factors argue for the use of the simple past. There would be nothing inconsistent in the meaning if we added a time reference, thus: Are the books we ordered last [week / month / year] used by any other university here? There is no question here -- no doubt -- about the fact of the ordering of the books.

But if there were some doubt about whether the books had been ordered, the present perfect, which is indefinite about time, might be more appropriate: Have you ordered the books yet? Yes, and the books we have ordered will be delivered to us by the end of the week. The underlined portions remain indefinite about the time of the ordering because the main point here is to find out (or to confirm, in the answer) that the event has taken place, not when.

CJ

Re: simple past vs present perfect

Grammar Geek — Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:45:38 GMT

For me, when you use the present perfect, it shows that the action is quite recent. If you ordered those books a year ago and they have been on your shelves for 10 months, the use of present perfect is clearly incorrect.

If you just placed the order, or if you ordered them, but they haven't arrived yet, then "have ordered" works as well as simple past.