ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

Clive — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:30:31 GMT

Hi again,

My comments are in italics.

(1) Susan puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which are her favourites.

1a- Is "her favourites" referring to "some nuts"? Is it clear in meaning? Any other possible meaning? In theory, it could also refer to the two items, chocolate cake and strawberry sauce. It'd be clearer to put the relative clause immediatley after the word 'nuts'.

(2) Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which is her favourite.

2a- Could "her favourite" refer to "a cherry"? No

2b- Or, is "her favourite" will still inclined to be 'chocolate cake in strawberry sauce' as it is the nearest words to "her favourite". Yes

2c- Could it mean "her favourite" = "a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce"? Very unlikely if not, how to present for that meaning? I think that for clarity, you'd have to be explicit. Perhaps say something like 'which is her favourite combination of three things'.

2d- If "her favourite" is just "the cherry", then "Susan puts a cherry, which is her favourite, on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce." Right? Yes, yes, yes.

2e- If "her favourite" is just "the cake", then "Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake, which is her favourite, in strawberry sauce." Right? Yes

2f- In general speaking, is it not proper to make such an unclear sentence? Any exception? It depends on what you mean by 'proper'. To tell you the truth, if you say this kind of thing to me, I just smile because you're friendly, I smile back, I say 'That sounds nice', and I don't much care exactly what you mean.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

Wytam — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:43:25 GMT

Thanks a lot!

We do have unclear conversation / writing. As I'm taking a translation course, I've to understand the English meaning /sentence structure & then translate it. If this means unclear, it will be translated this way.

Some unsolved queries:

(1) Susan puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which are her favourites.

1a- Is "her favourites" referring to "some nuts"? Is it clear in meaning? Any other possible meaning?

(2) Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which is her favourite.

2a- Could "her favourite" refer to "a cherry"?

2b- Or, is "her favourite" will still inclined to be 'chocolate cake in strawberry sauce' as it is the nearest words to "her favourite".

2c- Could it mean "her favourite" = "a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce"? if not, how to present for that meaning?

2d- If "her favourite" is just "the cherry", then "Susan puts a cherry, which is her favourite, on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce." Right?

2e- If "her favourite" is just "the cake", then "Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake, which is her favourite, in strawberry sauce." Right?

2f- In general specking, is it not proper to make such an unclear sentence? Any exception?

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

Clive — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:31:52 GMT

Hi,

There have been so many amendments to the last post that I don't know which are new queries. So, I'll just comment on the last part.

3.1) She put the card into a big envelope with a red sign.

3.2)She put the card into a big envelop, with a red sign.

Is it proper to make such sentences as 3.1 or 3.2? If they are proper sentences, how to distinguish the meaning in oral English as a comma is just a short pause in conversation. Sure, we say this kind of thing all the time. The listener may not even care about the exact meaning. If he does, he can ask for clarification. Similarly, if the speaker wants to say something where the meaning is very important, he will typically choose words that make the meaning clear, or follow up with a question to make sure he has been understood correctly.

Does everyone who speaks in your native language speak precisely at all times? I doubt it.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

Wytam — Wed, 25 Jan 2006 06:39:49 GMT

Refer to the message posted on 24 Jan, would anyone please answer the following (the content is same as 24 Jan):

Wytam wrote:

Many thanks for your help!

Some more questions in modified cases:
(1) Susan puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which are her favourites.
1a- Is it proper English?

1b- Is "her favourites" referring to "some nuts"? Should it be more clear to the meaning? Any other possible meaning?

(2) Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which is her favourite.

2a- Recap to Clive's reply, the meaning of (2) should be unclear. Now the direct object (cherry) is singular. Could "her favourite" refer to "a cherry"?

2b- Is "her favourite" will still inclined to be 'chocolate cake in strawberry sauce' as it is the nearest words to "her favourite".

2c- Could it mean "her favourite" = "a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce"? if not, how to present for that meaning?

2d- If "her favourite" is just "the cherry", then "Susan puts a cherry, which is her favourite, on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce." Right?

2e- If "her favourite" is just "the cake", then "Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake, which is her favourite, in strawberry sauce." Right?

2f- In general specking, is it not proper to make such an unclear sentence? Any exception?

3.1) She put the card into a big envelope with a red sign. i.e. the sign would be probably on the envelope.

3.2)She put the card into a big envelop, with a red sign. i.e. the sign would be in the envelope.

Is it proper to make such sentences as 3.1 or 3.2? If they are proper sentences, how to distinguish the meaning in oral English as a comma is just a short pause in conversation.

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

davkett — Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:37:55 GMT

Neither version (with and without the comma) is the clearest way to write the idea. The which clause does not modify 'our country' (though 'our country' is the nearest subject in the word sequence). The which clause may be interpreted here as modifying either 'natural substances' or 'develop natural substances'.

Semantically speaking, the idea might best be written--

'We can be made rich by developing our country's natural resources'.

or--We must develop all our country's natural resources if we want to be rich.'

or--'Developing all our country's resources can make us rich.'

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

Anonymous — Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:52:53 GMT

Some other questions:

1) We must develop all the natural substances in our country which can make us rich.
- is it grammatically correct?

- "our country" is the nearest to "which" but it doesn't sound like.

- Should "which" refer to the natural substance as it is the direct object? Is it because "our country" is just adverb?

- any other possible meaning?

2) We must develop all the natural substances in our country, which can make us rich.

- is it grammatically correct?

- Should "which" refer to "develop all the natural substances in our country"?

- any other possible meaning?

Re: Question on using comma (Some more questions)

Wytam — Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:30:19 GMT

Many thanks for your help!

Some more questions in modified cases:
(1) Susan puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which are her favourites.
1a- Is it proper English?

1b- Is "her favourites" referring to "some nuts"? Should it be more clear to the meaning? Any other possible meaning?

(2) Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce, which is her favourite.

2a- Recap to Clive's reply, the meaning of (2) should be unclear. Now the direct object (cherry) is singular. Could "her favourite" refer to "a cherry"?

2b- Is "her favourite" will still inclined to be 'chocolate cake in strawberry sauce' as it is the nearest words to "her favourite".

2c- Could it mean "her favourite" = "a cherry on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce"? if not, how to present for that meaning?

2d- If "her favourite" is just "the cherry", then "Susan puts a cherry, which is her favourite, on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce." Right?

2e- If "her favourite" is just "the cake", then "Susan puts a cherry on the chocolate cake, which is her favourite, in strawberry sauce." Right?

2f- In general specking, is it not proper to make such an unclear sentence? Any exception?

3.1) She put the card into a big envelope with a red sign. i.e. the sign would be probably on the envelope.

3.2)She put the card into a big envelop, with a red sign. i.e. the sign would be in the envelope.

Is it proper to make such sentences as 3.1 or 3.2? If they are proper sentences, how to distinguish the meaning in oral English as a comma is just a short pause in conversation.

Re: Question in using comma

Clive — Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:25:30 GMT

Hi,

I've corrected a few small errors in your examples.

1) Susan puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry sauce which is her favourite.
-- What is her favour? Nuts (direct object), chocolate cake (indirect object) or strawberry saurce (adverb?)? It can't be nuts, because the verb 'is' is singular. It's not a well-written sentence without the comma after sauce. The meaning is unclear, it could be either 'cake' or 'sauce', but I'd be inclined to think of 'chocolate cake in strawberry sauce' as a unit, as the name of a 'thing', and that 'hting' is her favourite.

if there is a commor after saurce, i.e. "May puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce, which is her favour."
That means her favour = some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce. right? No, I'd really make the same comment as I did above.

2) She put the card into a big envelope with a red sign.
-- Where is the red sign? the card (direct object), envelope (in-direct object? adverb?) It's unclear. I'd thing it's probably on the envelope.

-- If the red sign is on the envelope, would the sentence be:
She put the card, into a big envelop with a red sign. No. This is just wrong. Did you mean to put the comma aafter envelope? hat way, I think the sign would be in the envelope.

-- If the red sign is on the card, would the sentence be:
She put the card, with a red sign, into a big envelop. No. You need to omit the comma after 'card'. And you shouldn't put a comma after sign, either.

3) Any book suggestion for building complex sentance? No, sorry. there are lots of good grammar books around, just choose one. Then read a lot, and practice a lot.

Best wishes, Clive

Question in using comma

Anonymous — Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:00:35 GMT

1) Susan puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce which is her favour.
-- What is her favour? Nuts (direct object), chocolate
cake (indirect object) or strawberry saurce (adverb?)?

if there is a commor after saurce, i.e. "May puts some nuts on the chocolate cake in strawberry saurce, which is her favour."
That means her favour = some nuts on the chocolate
cake in strawberry saurce. right?

2) She put the card into a big envelop with a red sign.
-- Where is the red sign? the card (direct object),
envelope (in-direct object? adverb?)

-- If the red sign is on the envelope, would the sentence be:
She put the card, into a big envelop with a red sign.

-- If the red sign is on the card, would the sentencebe:
She put the card, with a red sign, into a big envelop.

3) Any book suggestion for building complex sentance?