ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

paco2004 — Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:12:04 GMT

One of conflicts between us lies in the fact that, to most of native speakers, the English language is something to speak and listen to in their life, but for many learners of English (especially students in East Asian countries), the English language is still principally a means to get knowledge through reading books written in it.

paco

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

LeicesterLad — Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:47:11 GMT

Apologies if I've created controversy here! My remarks were more focussed on spoken English than written, and perhaps it's not surprising that official documents and teaching literature follow the rule more strictly, since there are always people ready to find error with officialdom! In my opinion though, written English should follow the conventions of spoken English, rather than the other way round. It was after all primarily through speech that the language has evolved to its present state.

Of course, changes like this are happening all the time. A similar example is the word "gotten", the past participle of "get" (as opposed to "got"). You never hear the word in the UK, but you did 300 years ago, and still do in many parts of the USA and Canada. It could be argued that it is more "correct" than than "got" in certain circumstances, but because it died out in spoken British English, it is no longer taught, and no longer appears in the most official of documents.

Also "thou art" rather than "you are". I could continue.... }8^)

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

paco2004 — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:05:39 GMT

Hi Milky

Sounds like the link is nice. We lerners online want to know what word is used in which register. Thank you a lot.

paco

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

milky — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:56:51 GMT

Paco2004 wrote:
Milky wrote:
I can't access all what you pasted. Are they milky spams?

Patience is a virtue, Paco. Try the edited version.

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

paco2004 — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:52:40 GMT

Milky wrote:
Paco2004 wrote:
LeicesterLad wrote:

I await the thunderbolt.....
But we can find "whom" in 2,170,000 pages on gov.uk, 779,000 on bbc.uk, 167,000 on nytimes.com, and 221,000 on CNN.com. Should English learners give up reading them?

paco

No, but they should also not insist on us using "whom" in spoken English. These are the fugure from the BNC on use in various registers:

REGISTER SPOKEN
271

FICTION
1,864
NEWS 903

ACADEMIC
2,690
NONFIC MISC
2,566

OTHER MISC

4,302

I can't access all what you pasted. Are they milky spams?

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

milky — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:48:30 GMT

Paco2004 wrote:
LeicesterLad wrote:

I await the thunderbolt.....
But we can find "whom" in 2,170,000 pages on gov.uk, 779,000 on bbc.uk, 167,000 on nytimes.com, and 221,000 on CNN.com. Should English learners give up reading them?

paco

No, but pedants should also not insist on us using "whom" in spoken English. These are the fugures from the BNC on use in various registers:

SPOKEN - 271

FICTION - 1,864

NEWS - 903

ACADEMIC - 2,690

NONFIC MISC - 2,566

OTHER MISC - 4,302

http://view.byu.edu/

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

paco2004 — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:59:22 GMT

LeicesterLad wrote:
At the risk of outraging the purists, I think this is an example of where modern usage has supplanted a previous "rule". Very few modern English speakers use the word "whom" in normal conversation. Indeed, most would be far more surprised to hear it spoken in a sentence, than by its its "non" appearance in a sentence where the "rule" says it "should" be.
So I would advise both native and non native speakers not to worry, and use "who" in all circumstances.

I await the thunderbolt.....

But we can find "whom" in 2,170,000 pages on gov.uk, 779,000 on bbc.uk, 167,000 on nytimes.com, and 221,000 on CNN.com. Should English learners give up reading them?

paco

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

pieanne — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:16:20 GMT

None from me... It's just that now I'm at a loss at what to teach students...

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

LeicesterLad — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 04:44:43 GMT

At the risk of outraging the purists, I think this is an example of where modern usage has supplanted a previous "rule". Very few modern English speakers use the word "whom" in normal conversation. Indeed, most would be far more surprised to hear it spoken in a sentence, than by its its "non" appearance in a sentence where the "rule" says it "should" be.

So I would advise both native and non native speakers not to worry, and use "who" in all circumstances.

I await the thunderbolt.....

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

MrPedantic — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:11:30 GMT

Yes...you have to feel a little sorry for it...

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

pieanne — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:26:26 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

You can say "Whom was the payment authorized by?", but (in spoken BrE, at least) it's likely to grate on your listener's ear a little.

MrP

What about the him/he rule, then ?

From now on, I'll never authorize any payment.

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

KatieBeth — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:20:58 GMT

Thank you so much! I've changed my letter (score 1 for Microsoft) and will remember this for the future!

I appreciate it (yet again).

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

MrPedantic — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:08:17 GMT

I'm not sure anyone speaks like people speak in our examples...

But I think in this instance, the financial controller (a fairly tetchy and pedantic fellow) fronted "By whom" because his main concern was to discover the identity of the payment-authorizing miscreant. And the hapless bought ledger clerk fronted "by me" in tremulous response.

In less fraught circumstances, the FC might simply have said, "Who was the payment authorized by?".

You can say "Whom was the payment authorized by?", but (in spoken BrE, at least) it's likely to grate on your listener's ear a little.

MrP

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

pieanne — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:57:23 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

2. By whom was the payment authorized? â By me, I'm afraid.

I've been taught not to start a question with a preposition... Can't we say "Whom was the payment authorized by?" ? Or doesn't anybody speak like that anymore? [double ]

Re: Who or Whom (yet again, sorry)

MrPedantic — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:02:17 GMT

Hello KatieBeth

"Whom" also relates to equivalents of "him":

1. Whom did you ask? â I asked her.

2. By whom was the payment authorized? â By me, I'm afraid.

etc.

The "rule" is a good bet â except that most people don't apply it, as you noted in your original post.

MrP