ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:57:29 GMT

You're a descriptivist? That's encouraging to see on here. Thank you.

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Cool Breeze — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:37:15 GMT

Anonymous
Please advise re the cat which belongs to Grace. Because Grace ends with an /s/ sound I wonder if it Is Grace's cat? Or Grace' cat?

I agree with Yankee. Yet, it must be said that there is a tendency among today's grammarians to standardize the often entangled genitive of English. That may deprive English of some of its most fascinating ways to denote possession. This charming jumble wouldn't be there if a Language Academy had had its say about it a few centuries ago. Here are a few examples from Otto Jespersen's Essentials of English Grammar:

"Note especially for conscience' sake, for goodness' sake (on account of the following s); before sake the s is also sometimes left out, even if the word does not in itself end in s: for brevity sake, for fashion sake."

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Yankee — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 02:12:27 GMT

Hi

It's Grace's cat.

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 02:08:07 GMT

Please advise re the cat which belongs to Grace. Â Because Grace ends with an /s/ sound I wonder if it Is Grace's cat? Â Or Grace' cat?

Thanks!

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Grammar Geek — Wed, 07 May 2008 14:58:28 GMT

Is there a reason you don't think it works just like all the other names? This one doesn't end in s, or z, or anything else confusing, so what is causing difficulty for you?

This is Harry Greenberg's dog.

This is the Greenbergs' dog (more than one Greenberg).

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Wed, 07 May 2008 14:44:40 GMT

What is the correct possessive from of the proper name Greenberg

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Grammar Geek — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 13:33:43 GMT

I would, without hesitation, write it as Eilis's mom.

One of the the other factors to consider (as you have written) is how it's said.

Richards' apologies is said "richards apology" and Eilis's mom is said "eilishiz mom."

Eilis' mom reads like it should be "eye-lish mom" -- and that's just not what's said. No matter how awesome and special she is, she's not Socrates or Moses.

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Wed, 02 Jan 2008 03:32:34 GMT

My daughter and I were just discussing this topic and I found this forum quite helpful. Her name is Eilis (pronounced eye-lish.) Since her name is not historical, I believe the possessive is Eilis's. The pronunciation of the possessive would be "eye-lish-iz" which seems to, again, point to a spelling of Eilis's if I am interpreting that point correctly. She insists on using Eilis' because it is a "special" name. I can't disagree with that...she is pretty special too. Any opinions on which form is correct?

Eilis's Mom (?)

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Grammar Geek — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 04:22:17 GMT

Yes, the AP Style Book should be the ruling authority on this. My copy is at work and I am home. Although I have to say, the AP style on this is really odd, which is why my company decided to not follow it for this rule (except on press releases where AP is expected). Repost to this on Monday when I'm back in the office to remind me, and I'll look it up and quote it for you.

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 03:49:17 GMT

I'm the same anonymous as before -- I may get around to registering in the near future.

Journalistic style seems to differ from the consensus here; cf this CNN article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/22/sharpton.richard/index.html

It's about Michael Richards's apology to the african-american community, but they continually use "Richards' apology."

I'm sure there's an ironclad code of proper journalistic style, which I am aware is not always in line with mainstream (or even proper) english. Anyone have access to/awareness of that code/guide?

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Grammar Geek — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:56:59 GMT

Socrates, Jesus, and a few other "classics" are treated as special cases in many of the style guides. It's not a completely consistent way to go about things.

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Cool Breeze — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:42:12 GMT

On the whole, I agree with Grammar Geek. It has long been quite common in AE to write Charles' car and Jones' car although some consider them incorrect. As far as I know, in BE people prefer Charles's car and Jones's car. Even in BE, however, classical names are usually in the genitive without the final s: Socrates' thoughts.

As to the plural, there are no exceptions: Mr Roberts, Mrs Roberts and their son are the Robertses. A plural genitive is formed by adding an apostrophe after the plural ending: The Robertses' car.

Cheers
CB

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Grammar Geek — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 01:35:30 GMT

Eh... this is a weird area. I'd say it's incorrect, but that's because I follow certain style guides. Since my last name is Davis, this is a matter of more than hypothetical interest to me. I would say "Barbara Davis' post on this thread" is incorrect if someone wrote it about my post. But if Charles wrote that Charles' post was worth reading, I wouldn't correct him on his own name. However, if you hire me as your proofreader, I will "correct" it every time.

(I'm not too worried about giving away my identity - it's the sixth most common name in the U.S. Even in my tiny town, three people with my name have a library card and four have memberships at the YMCA.)

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Nov 2006 00:57:41 GMT

I think I'm in love with this forum.

Singular individual now, last name Roberts.

I seem to be gathering that "Charles Roberts's house" is correct. Is "Charles Roberts' house" patently incorrect? Might this be a matter of personal preference for anyone whose last name ends with an s?

Re: Possessive of a proper name

Anonymous — Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:48:54 GMT

As a person who has married into the Harris family, I found your post extreamlt helpful! Thank you!