http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here. <font color=red>DO NOT post paragraphs and compositions here. Post them in our <a href="http://www.englishforums.com/English/EssayReportCompositionWriting/Forum9.htm"><b>Essay, Report and Composition Writing Forum</b></a>.</font>enXMOD (Build: 3614.32638)http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275571Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275571Yoong Liat0http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275571http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275571.xmlYoong Liat wrote: Would I be correct to say that the teacher selected to answer English queries from members of the public via email are qualified enough? I'm not referring to teachers who teach Singaporeans in the classrooms. Saiing wrote: I've no idea. I don't know who they choose to perform such activities. One would certainly hope that they have sufficient knowledge of the language to be able to do the job effectively. Thanks for the clarification. My contention is that the teacher selected to answer queries from the members of the public via email is qualified enough to attend to queries. I'm not referring to teachers who teach in the classrooms. Although I believe that the teacher...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275532Sat, 23 May 2009 19:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275532Saiing1http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275532http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275532.xmlYoong Liat wrote: Hello Siiang Hello Loong Yait! Yoong Liat wrote: You say "Most of the folks who work for the BC are allowed to be sent abroad to teach in foreign classrooms, but wouldn't be allowed to teach in a high school back home." Why do you say 'most', not 'all'. Are you implying that at least a few of them at the British Council are qualified enough to teach in a high school? Absolutely... That would be the normal implication you could draw from the word "most". Yoong Liat wrote: Would I be correct to say that the teacher selected to answer English queries from members of the public via emailhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275523Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275523Yoong Liat2http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275523http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275523.xmlHello Siiang You say "Most of the folks who work for the BC are allowed to be sent abroad to teach in foreign classrooms, but wouldn't be allowed to teach in a high school back home." Why do you say 'most', not 'all'. Are you implying that at least a few of them at the British Council are qualified enough to teach in a high school? Would I be correct to say that the teacher selected to answer English queries from members of the public via email are qualified enough? I'm not referring to teachers who teach Singaporeans in the classrooms. I would like you to clarify. Hello Clive I agree with you. A person with a degree in English may not have a good command of grammar. I know from personal experience that this is true. But...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275484Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275484Saiing3http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275484http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275484.xmlYoong Liat wrote: You seem to know so much about the BC teachers. May I know how you come to the conclusion that they're not the highly qualified academics? Are you saying that they do not have a degree in English? You think they are not so qualified. Have you worked with them before and for how long? And how many BC teachers do you know since you seem to imply you know a lot of them. Forgive me Yoong Liat. I'm really not that interested in bashing the British Council (especially being a Brit myself). They do a great job, and contribute widely to the education of non-native speakers in the language. I just find it amusing that you seem to be convinced that BC teachers are almost akin to English demi-gods, striding Goliath-like...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275448Sat, 23 May 2009 19:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275448Clive4http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275448http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275448.xmlHi guys, I'd like to make a comment about degrees in English. When I obtained my TESL teaching certificate, it was a post-graduate course. Several of my new classmates were young, recent graduates with degrees in English. The TESL course focussed mainly on the theory and methodology of teaching, but naturally there was a large component that involved grammar. To my surprise, several of my classmates with English degrees had significant problems with grammar. This suggested to me that many English degrees today concentrate on literary analysis rather than grammar. In my opinion, the problem was compounded by the fact that high schools, at least where I live, no longer teach grammar thoroughly and intensively. It's certainly...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275291Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275291Yoong Liat5http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275291http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275291.xmlYou seem to know so much about the BC teachers. May I know how you come to the conclusion that they're not the highly qualified academics? Are you saying that they do not have a degree in English? You think they are not so qualified. Have you worked with them before and for how long? And how many BC teachers do you know since you seem to imply you know a lot of them.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275135Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:275135Saiing6http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#275135http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-275135.xmlYoong Liat wrote: 2. I do not know wish to question whether the British Council teachers are authorities on English because although the minimum specified qualification for working as a BC teacher, according to you, is a CELTA, Not according to me. According to the British Council. (check their website if you want to be sure). Yoong Liat wrote: they should have other English qualifications to be selected as a teacher. You would think so wouldn't you? But, no. With the greatest respect, how many British Council teachers do you know, and how much information do you know about their qualifications? I'm not trying to argue with you about this, but really they're not the highly qualified academics you seem to think they are....http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#274496Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:274496Yoong Liat7http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/3/dvkhg/Post.htm#274496http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-274496.xmlI say: Contrary to what you said all the books agree on all the topics except a couple of them. 1. Actually, to be fair, that's what I did say, although I accept that perhaps my wording was a little ambiguous and the meaning was implied rather than explicit. I apologise for not being clearer. Fundamentally, most texts agree on a the basic tenets of the language, but there are enough gaps or controversial areas of disagreement (particularly when it comes to usage) to cause significant headaches; especially at a more advanced level of study. Now the picture is clearer. We are saying the same thing. 2. I do not know wish to question whether the British Council teachers are authorities on English because although the minimum...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#274379Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:44:59 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:274379Saiing8http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#274379http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-274379.xmlTo respond to your specific points: Are you referring to the teachers at the British Council or the other staff members. I was referring to both teaching and non-teaching staff working for the British Council. I'm a little confused about what would be news to you, as the only point I was really making was that British Council teachers are human like the rest of us. The minimum specified qualification for working as a BC teacher is a CELTA, and indeed this is what a lot of their teachers have. While the CELTA is an excellent course, and well worth considering, in most cases it constitutes a 4 week programme. If you consider 20 days of teacher training enough to make you an "authority" on the English Language, I'm afraid I would be...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#274152Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:274152Yoong Liat9http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#274152http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-274152.xmlI wouldn't suggest for one moment that I know better than the British Council. However I do know people who have worked for them, and they're human like everyone else. May I know what you mean by 'people who have worked for them'? Are you referring to the teachers at the British Council or the other staff members. It will be news to me if you are talking about the teachers. Different grammar texts rarely agree on every topic, so who is right? I wonder how many grammar or English usage books you've read, but from my experience of reading books on English, I've discovered that contrary to what you said all the books agree on all the topics except a couple of them. I think you've made a sweeping statement .http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273947Sat, 23 May 2009 19:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273947Saiing10http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273947http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273947.xmlI wouldn't suggest for one moment that I know better than the British Council. However I do know people who have worked for them, and they're human like everyone else. I think it's not a case of trusting books. It's a case of looking at where books can help us, and where they can perhaps mislead. Obviously from a non-native speaker's point of view this is difficult, so to an extent you have to trust what is down on the page in front of you. Why else do 90% of the world's English language students greet each other with the well worn "I'm fine, thank you. And you?" routine, despite the fact that in all the years I've been on this earth, I can't once recall hearing a native speaker utter those words. Different grammar texts rarely agree on...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273920Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273920Yoong Liat11http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273920http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273920.xmlIf you go to the extent to say that the British Council is not an authority on English, it seems to imply that you know better than they do. In Singapore, we have the Speak Good English Movement and the Singapore Government has to approach the British Council for help. If you read books on English usage and yet you say you don't trust what they say, then I don't know what you should do to improve your English.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273835Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273835Saiing12http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273835http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273835.xmlYoong Liat wrote: If we analyse what the English authority has stated, it does make sense. If it is something positive or nothing negative is involved, put yourself last. This is because it more polite to do so. If it is negative, put yourself first in the list of persons mentioned. In this case, something bad has happened, and it would not be prudent to put yourself at the end of the list. All the books on English usage will say the same things but differ once in a while. And every book will give you additional knowledge, which is not provided by the other books. In this way, your knowledge increases as you read more and more such books. What is written in books on English usage can often be found in the dictionaries as well...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273753Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273753Clive13http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273753http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273753.xmlHi, I'd like to offer a suggestion that it would be helpful if quotations from authors could be accompanied by the date of publication. For example, Rupert of Hentzau by Hope was first published in 1898. The Tenant of Wildfell Hall was published just before Anne Bronte died in 1849. I think it's possible that some learners of English may assume that everything in such quotations is an example of modern-day English. I'm not suggesting that such works as these are not well written. I just feel that it would be good to provide a little chronological perspective. Best wishes, Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273664Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273664Marius Hancu14http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273664http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273664.xmlYoong Liat: No, I think this conclusion wouldn't be correct. All I wanted to say is that politeness seems to be much more important with "he and I" than with "they and we." At The NYT: "he and I" 991 Results http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22he+and+I%22+&amp;srchst=nyt "I and he" 3 Results http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22I+and+he%22+&amp;srchst=nythttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273656Sat, 23 May 2009 19:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273656Yoong Liat15http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273656http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273656.xmlHi Marius Also: Rupert of Hentzau by Hope, Anthony - Chapter 19 flames were burnt down now; and we and they approached the charred ruins. Everything was in ashes. But"--he lowered his voice--"we found what seemed to be ... The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Bronte, Anne - Chapter 45 both we and they remain essentially the same individuals as before. But, Gilbert, can you really derive no consolation from the thought ... Based on all your quotations, it is not wrong to write 'I' or 'we' first. I agree with the book I had read which states that if it is something negative, you should mention yourself first. It makes sense, doesn't it?http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273624Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273624Marius Hancu16http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/2/dvkhg/Post.htm#273624http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273624.xmlClick on those links in my posting, GG, to see examples (OK, a bit cut, but ...):-) Also: Rupert of Hentzau by Hope, Anthony - Chapter 19 flames were burnt down now; and we and they approached the charred ruins. Everything was in ashes. But"--he lowered his voice--"we found what seemed to be ... The Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Bronte, Anne - Chapter 45 both we and they remain essentially the same individuals as before. But, Gilbert, can you really derive no consolation from the thought ...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273620Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273620Grammar Geek17http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273620http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273620.xml"They and we" (as well as "We and they") sound VERY strange. If they are we are both doing this thing (as a compound subject), wouldn't we just say "We all" or "We both"? If you want to emphasize that "they" are different from "us," then I'd use each pronouns with its own verb. "The fact that we were going to be there at the same time that they were going to be there was not a factor because the resort was so large." I can't imagine saying "We and they will go on vacation at the same time." I'd say "We're both going at the same time." Can you give a couple examples of complete sentences in which they are the compound subject? (I'm familiar with the usage of "There's no "we and they" in this - we're all in it together" but that's...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273615Sat, 23 May 2009 19:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273615Marius Hancu18http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273615http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273615.xmlBTW, there seems to be no politeness extended to "they" by "we" " They and we " and " we and they " are equally seen at The New York Times: http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22we+and+they%22&amp;srchst=nyt http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22they+and+we%22+&amp;srchst=nythttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273590Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273590Marius Hancu19http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273590http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273590.xmlGrammar Geek wrote: I am not taking sides here, but as a native speaker, I would never, ever say "I and Peter" (unless I changed my mind about what I wanted to say as I was saying it: "I.... uh, oh, and Peter too, I guess, will be a the party.") Negative or positive, it will always be "Peter and I." Very interesting. Never thought of this question.http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273519Sat, 23 May 2009 19:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273519Grammar Geek20http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273519http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273519.xmlI am not taking sides here, but as a native speaker, I would never, ever say "I and Peter" (unless I changed my mind about what I wanted to say as I was saying it: "I.... uh, oh, and Peter too, I guess, will be a the party.") Negative or positive, it will always be "Peter and I." (As a side note, I agree with Sailing to the extent that there are some people who look for tiny nuances and report them as though they are firm rules. There are about 10 pages of posts on how "he must" "he has to" and "he is required to" differ, for example, and in my personal usage, 98% of the time, they are the same. Likewise, "he may" or "he might" are almost synonymous, but that didn't keep people from talking about it for four or more pages. And...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273400Sat, 23 May 2009 19:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273400Yoong Liat21http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273400http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273400.xmlSaiing wrote: No disrespect to you personally Yoong Liat, but frankly you can read almost anything in a book. And that's half the problem. Actually almost any time that either grammar or etiquette are discussed (including here), you get people searching desperately to come up with rules that either barely exist, or are actually applied by about 0.00000001% of the native speaking population -and as such are next to worthless. Many people (especially English language reference authors) often seem to feel they have to identify the subtlest nuance and carve it into tablets of stone, to justify themselves, when really all they do is contribute to misleading the reader into heading further and further down the path to learning "textbook...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273368Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273368Saiing22http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273368http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273368.xmlNo disrespect to you personally Yoong Liat, but frankly you can read almost anything in a book. And that's half the problem. Actually almost any time that either grammar or etiquette are discussed (including here), you get people searching desperately to come up with rules that either barely exist, or are actually applied by about 0.00000001% of the native speaking population -and as such are next to worthless. Many people (especially English language reference authors) often seem to feel they have to identify the subtlest nuance and carve it into tablets of stone, to justify themselves, when really all they do is contribute to misleading the reader into heading further and further down the path to learning "textbook English" -a language...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273363Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273363Yoong Liat23http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273363http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273363.xmlClive wrote: Hi, What is the correct word order (if there is one) for two object pronouns? For example, is is "He hated her and me" or "He hated me and her"? I wouldn't really say that grammar requires a particular order. Such matters usually come from politeness. eg For subjects, Mary and I is usually more polite than I and Mary'. But I don't see as much need for that with objects. Emphasis is a consideration. Generally speaking, the one that comes first will seem to have a bit more emphasis, but even here, things like tone of voice also are important factors. Best wishes, Clive Hi Clive I've read from a book on English usage that if it is about something negative, the speaker should mention himself or...http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273261Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273261Clive24http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htm#273261http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273261.xmlHi, What is the correct word order (if there is one) for two object pronouns? For example, is is "He hated her and me" or "He hated me and her"? I wouldn't really say that grammar requires a particular order. Such matters usually come from politeness. eg For subjects, Mary and I is usually more polite than I and Mary'. But I don't see as much need for that with objects. Emphasis is a consideration. Generally speaking, the one that comes first will seem to have a bit more emphasis, but even here, things like tone of voice also are important factors. Best wishes, Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htmFri, 23 Jan 2009 20:45:00 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:273230Anonymous25http://www.englishforums.com/English/Pronouns/dvkhg/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-273230.xmlWhat is the correct word order (if there is one) for two object pronouns? For example, is is "He hated her and me" or "He hated me and her"?