ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: evidences

pieanne — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:38:11 GMT

I hadn't noticed this was the third page for this thread... Sorry, all!

Re: evidences

MrPedantic — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:29:50 GMT

It's current in certain contexts. Here's an interesting examination of the word:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/evidences.html

MrP

Re: evidences

Yoong Liat — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:26:34 GMT

If I'm not mistaken, 'evidences' is old-fashioned English and the word is no longer used nowadays.

Re: evidences

Yankee — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:09:22 GMT

Anonymous wrote:
Which one is right?
My conclusion is it is used both in American and British English.

My conclusion is it is used both by American and British English.

I think it would be best to look at it this way:

The word evidence is almost always used as an uncountable noun. The situations in which it can correctly be used as a countable noun are relatively rare.

Re: evidences

pieanne — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:30:53 GMT

I would say it is used in a language, not by one, but that doesn't mean you won't find examples where it's "by".

Re: evidences

Anonymous — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:48:19 GMT

Hi,

Which one is right?

My conclusion is it is used both in American and British English.

My conclusion is it is used both by American and British English.

Re: William Paley (1743--1805)

Grammar Geek — Sun, 14 Jan 2007 06:45:41 GMT

I think you need to notice the 1794 in that citation.

William Paley (1743--1805)

Teo — Sat, 13 Jan 2007 10:54:46 GMT

His 1794 book A View of the Evidences of Christianity was required reading at Cambridge University.

Re: evidences

Teo — Sun, 31 Dec 2006 07:14:45 GMT

Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, the seventh edition.

eviâ¢dence
" src="http://www.oup.com/images/elt/oald7/psym.gif"> noun
1 [U, C] ~ (of / for sth)| ~ (that ... )| ~ (to suggest, show, etc.) the facts, signs or objects that make you believe that sth is true: There is convincing evidence of a link between exposure to sun and skin cancer. We found further scientific evidence for this theory. There is not a shred of evidence that the meeting actually took place. Have you any evidence to support this allegation? The room bore evidence of a struggle. On the evidence of their recent matches, it is unlikely the Spanish team will win the cup. (technical) The cave contained evidences of prehistoric settlement.
2 [U] the information that is used in court to try to prove sth: I was asked to give evidence (= to say what I knew, describe what I had seen, etc.) at the trial. He was released when the judge ruled there was no evidence against him.

Re: evidences

MrPedantic — Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:43:25 GMT

Hello Believer

Believer wrote:

What is the difference between someone editing a book and writing a book?

If you compile a book composed of other people's work (e.g. essays), you have "edited" the book. If you yourself wrote all the text, however, you have "written" the book.

Believer wrote:

When a writer decides to use an uncountable word that deems to fit to turn around and being used as countable, does that person has to bear the burden of seeing the readers are aware reasonably of the picture depicted by his writing and will concur to its usage? I think CalifJim has said something to the line that a countable noun can be modified by the article "the" if a writer believes that the readers is mindful of the same thing, but in both cases, one being turning an uncountable noun into a countable noun and the other being the case of putting the infront of a countable noun thinking the readers are seeing the same thing, where does the reasonability of the mutual mindfulness of the matters on hand play out? Surely one doesn't at all have to be mindful of the fact whether the potential readers are aware of the matters that are brought out by one's writing.

I think Jim meant that a countable noun can be modified by "the" if the writer believes that the individual instance to which the noun refers is already obvious either from the context, or from what has preceded the reference.

Thus if I say "The building is very ugly", I am assuming that you already know which building I mean. (Perhaps I've already said "That's my old school over there"; or perhaps you've said "I'm visiting Buckingham Palace at the weekend".)

In the case of turning a noun that is usually non-countable into a countable noun, the writer gambles on the reader's understanding. I might say for instance:

1. Her consternation was very great.

That will be comprehensible to almost all readers. But if I say:

2. Her consternations were numerous.

it is almost certain to baffle many readers. (It will probably seem a little French to many more.)

Believer wrote:

...mannered...What do you meam by this?

By "mannered" I mean "artificial", "over-concerned with stylistic matters", "concentrating on words rather than meaning".

Does that help? Let me know if not!

MrP

Re: evidences

MrPedantic — Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:25:47 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:

Some things show up in academic writing that would simply never be spoken in conversation. I assure you, in the U.S., if you are discussion a local crime and say "What's the evidences against him?" or something similar, you will be perceived to be making a mistake. Perhaps BrE is different.

Sorry, I posted in haste and a little carelessly!

I agree with Marius that "evidences" is rare, and with GG that it's very unusual in ordinary English. No doubt a British police constable would also eye you curiously if you used "evidences" in conversation.

However, "an evidence" = "a piece of evidence" is attested from 1503; and the countable usage turns up from time to time in literary contexts, e.g.

1. Polyandry and polygamy are both evidences of a crude and half-evolved humanity. (Wilcox)

2. Have found peculiar soapstone fragment about six inches across and an inch and a half thick, wholly unlike any visible local formation â greenish, but no evidences to place its period. (Lovecraft)

3. He surveyed through the park railings the evidences of the town's opulence and luxury with an approving eye. (Conrad)

4. All these evidences of the success of her handiwork might have turned a calmer head than Mrs. Fetherel's... (Wharton)

MrP

Re: evidences

Yoong Liat — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:13:44 GMT

Barbara

Some things show up in academic writing that would simply never be spoken in onversation. I assure you, in the U.S., if you are discussion a local crime and say "What's the evidences against him?" or something similar, you will be perceived to be making a mistake. Perhaps BrE is different.

I agree with you on the above. I think it's the same in British English.

As a side note, I don't fine it neceesary to comment on people error's when they are obviously instances of "oops" instead of not knowing the correct form - much less after the person has acknowledged them.

I also agree with you on the above point.

Re: evidences

Believer — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:10:22 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

Yes, both are fine; you might want to make it absolutely clear that a person had not simply edited a book, for instance. MrPedantic, what is the difference between someone editing a book and writing a book?

To return to the earlier question, "evidences" might be used where you wanted to refer to individual items of evidence. Many seemingly non-countable abstract nouns can be used in this way; thus "felicity" is the state of happiness, but "felicities" might be individual instances of happiness. How should we know whether the writer is thinking something as an indiviudal instance of it or referring to an individual item of it? When a writer decides to use an uncountable word that deems to fit to turn around and being used as countable, does that person has to bear the burden of seeing the readers are aware reasonably of the picture depicted by his writing and will concur to its usage? I think CalifJim has said something to the line that a countable noun can be modified by the article "the" if a writer believes that the readers is mindful of the same thing, but in both cases, one being turning an uncountable noun into a countable noun and the other being the case of putting the infront of a countable noun thinking the readers are seeing the same thing, where does the reasonability of the mutual mindfulness of the matters on hand play out? Surely one doesn't at all have to be mindful of the fact whether the potential readers are aware of the matters that are brought out by one's writing. However, it might appear mannered What do you meam by this?

Sorry if my questions seem disorganized.

MrP

Re: evidences

Grammar Geek — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:01:35 GMT

Some things show up in academic writing that would simply never be spoken in conversation. I assure you, in the U.S., if you are discussing a local crime and say "What's the evidences against him?" or something similar, you will be perceived to be making a mistake. Perhaps BrE is different.

As a side note, I don't find it neceesary to comment on people error's when they are obviously instances of "oops" instead of not knowing the correct form - much less after the person has acknowledged them.

Re: evidences

Yoong Liat — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:56:13 GMT

Thanks, Mr P, for your reply to my question.