ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Persons/People

Anonymous — Sun, 04 May 2008 23:08:05 GMT

PEOPLE VERSUS PERSONS

When should we use which?

STORY STARTS>

There is confusion about the best way to describe more than one person. It often feels better to speak of âthree peopleâ rather than âthree personsâ, but this suggests that people is the plural of person.

The words people and person derive from different Latin roots, the former from populum, referring to the people in the sense of the populace, the latter from persona, âan actorâs mask; a character in a playâ and which in the English form person came to refer to an individual human being. (It was first brought in via French in the form parson, which for some unexplained reason soon took on the separate and specific sense in which we still use it, so that the word had to be re-borrowed with a new spelling. And persona itself was borrowed in that form by Jungian psychologists early this century to identify the personality a person presents to the world.)

The normal plural of person was persons, as in âtwo persons were presentâ. However, there is evidence from Chaucer onwards that some writers chose to use people as a plural for person, not only in the generalised sense of âan uncountable or indistinct mass of individualsâ but also in specific countable cases (Chaucer wrote of âa thousand peopleâ). This began to be questioned in Victorian times, and the pseudo-rule grew up that the plural of person is persons when a specific, countable number of individuals is meant, but that people should be used when the number is large or indefinite.

Modern style guides disagree, being able to quote many examples of the use of people as the plural of person in both situations, for example in sentences like âthe plane crash killed 370 peopleâ, and âMany people visit the park every dayâ. Though persons survives, it does so largely in formal or legal contexts (âKilled by person or persons unknownâ, âThis taxi is licensed to hold four personsâ) and often seems awkward and old-fashioned. Where it survives it emphasises that each member of a group is being considered as an individual: âThe nearest persons they can vent their feelings on are the ball boys and girlsâ, âEight persons shared a single roomâ. From the evidence, it seems that the trend towards using people instead of persons is accelerating and that it may not be so long before persons vanishes from the language except in certain set phrases.

The reverse process seems to be happening with people. Though in origin it is a singular collective noun, it has almost from the earliest times been treated as a plural term for people at large (which has no doubt aided its acceptance as the plural form of person). This has now become so commonplace, as in usages like âPeople are always looking for a bargainâ or âThe people are being asked to vote in a referendumâ, that now the singular form of people seems even stranger than the plural form of person: âThis people is angryâ, âThat Aboriginal people has died outâ.

The plural form peoples logically refers to more than one community or nation, although down the centuries some writers have been chary of it, and in the nineteenth century one described its use as âuncouthâ. These days it is the accepted form in contexts like âHis authority shaped diverse peoples into common views and allegiancesâ or âMagnified traditions especially bolster peoples embittered by subjugation or newly come to nationhoodâ.

STORY ENDS>

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:16:12 GMT

Kooyeen wrote:
I don't think it's exactly the same, but I don't know Spanish!

I know you know!

..okay, if I didn't understand wrong, you said that "guy" goes for a male while "guys" goes for males and females. What about "gals"? I heard it from a song, perphaps Justin Timberlake. "gals" refers to females and males? It's in plural too, isn't it?

So, is "gal" the female form of "guy"?

Re: Persons/People

Kooyeen — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:08:33 GMT

I don't know...
I don't think it's exactly the same, but I don't know Spanish!

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:48:50 GMT

I think I am starting to understand, is it same as "chicos" in Spanish?

Thanks again, Kooyeen!

Re: Persons/People

Kooyeen — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:44:11 GMT

Yankee wrote:

Seeing as Kooyeen is a devout descriptivist, I would expect him to avoid using 'persons' at practically any and all costs.

LOL Amy

Ana,
"Dude" is used to refer to a male informally.
"Guy" has the same meaning, but when it's plural, "Guys", it is used to refer to people of any sex. For example, "you guys" is used for plural "you" (but in the south they usually use "y'all" or "all y'all").
I don't know of anything to refer to girls or women apart from "chick", but that's not appropriate in most situations...

Re: Persons/People

Yankee — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:18:16 GMT

Seeing as Kooyeen is a devout descriptivist, I would expect him to avoid using 'persons' at practically any and all costs.

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:12:15 GMT

Okay, I will always use "people" now, but, doesn't "dudes" mean "friends"? ..and "guys" sounds very male chauvinist, doesn't it?

Thanks for your answer.

Re: Persons/People

Kooyeen — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 13:07:32 GMT

Pucca wrote:

..have you ever used "persons"?

Hmm, I guess I haven't! I use "people", "guys", "dudes"...

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:56:33 GMT

Thank you Kooyeen!
..have you ever used "persons"?

Re: Persons/People

Kooyeen — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:54:32 GMT

Hi Ana,
"persons" can be used in some formal contexts, in every other context "people" is always better. Especially in informal contexts (and speech), using "persons" would sound odd and not natural. Just use "people".

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Tue, 12 Jun 2007 12:43:35 GMT

Thanks Nona for your answer.

So, "persons" is only used in specific moments but it's better if I avoid using it since "people" can be used in all contexts, right?

Re: Persons/People

nona the brit — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:52:46 GMT

I can't imagine many contexts where you would need to use persons in speech.

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:59:00 GMT

Thanks Nona!

Then, there is no need to use "persons" if you are not writing a official sign, but what about while talking? Is it same?

Re: Persons/People

nona the brit — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:50:38 GMT

No, it's very rarely used.

About the only time I ever see 'persons' is on official signs. Lifts always have a sign saying 'To carry 12 persons'.

Re: Persons/People

Pucca — Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:42 GMT

Hello Clive,

Then, when would I be able to use "persons"? Hmm..when you are not generalizing something?

If so, what about "30 persons went to Carla's wedding"?

Thanks in advance!