ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Origin of definiteness

Clive — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 05:10:20 GMT

Hi,

Yes, that's a good attempt. I think you are on the right track. Keep trying, and I believe that you will slowly see an improvement and start to feel more relaxed about all this.

Clive

Re: Origin of definiteness

Believer — Wed, 18 Jul 2007 04:17:56 GMT

Thank you, Clive.

I found my writing left much to be desired and I made some effort to self-correct. I still don't know how to cut and paste, so I am going to rewrite the whole thing.

Thank you, Clive. I am not trying to ~~circumvent~~ (this word doesn't seem to fit in this context so I will replace it with 'go around answering') your question, but let me put my answer to your question (should be better to write 'let me answer like this' -- more direct) like this: as you said, according to how I interpreted (understood or see can work too) it, article usage usually ~~are~~ (should be is) influenced by how a person is thinking at the time of his writing. Many readers might disagree with his ~~uses~~ (or usage or use is better since I am using it generally and not about any specific uses) of articles, but to me, that doesn't make his usage of the articles he used less valid. I think Mr M said long ago (a long time ago might be good too) that something to the effect that in order for effective communication to occur, there ~~has~~ (should be have) to be an understanding and agreement (might be better to switch places like 'agreement and an understanding')on a writer's article uses (might be better to write 'usage of articles') in a writing. To me, that means it is best to have agreement on uses but not having agreement doesn't make his writing any less ~~of a writing~~ (seems grammatically wrong: should be 'any less acceptable') -- it is still ~~a writing~~ (very wrong -- should be 'a piece of writing') to be read, eventhough it might be a less effective one. Right now, I am trying to write more and in furtherance of that (or that effort), I am posting some ~~writings~~ (wrong again, should be "some writing') in this forum to get some help. In addition, I am searching (should add 'for') free online help sites ~~for writing better~~ (awkward -- better if written 'that will help me write better') to get more information. Do you have any advice for me? I am trying to dive in and learn by doing. I presume what you ~~mean~~ (OKbut it is better to use 'meant' since your writing was done in the past) by 'ordinary' English is English for ~~common or ordinary~~ (very awkward -- should be replaced with the phrase in the quotation marks 'common everyday') writing, not for formal, reseach-type writing.

That was hard work. Did I do a fine job -- always appreciate your help?

Re: Origin of definiteness

CalifJim — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:05:46 GMT

Both a and the can work in both examples without any significant difference in meaning.

The differences are extremely subtle. My impressions below are not the final word. They may be idiosyncratic.

-- What is the institution of television as it has been established in our modern societies?
-- Television is the system ...

-- What is television as a scientific technology?
-- Television is a system ...
_____________

-- What do we mean in general when we talk about the property of temperature?
-- The temperature of something is the measure of ... / Temperature is the measure of ...

-- What do we mean when we say "The temperature of the water is 30 degrees", or "The temperature of the air is 40 degrees"? What are these 'degree' expressions?
-- The temperature of something, i.e., one of those "number of degrees" expressions, is a measure of ...

CJ

Re: Origin of definiteness

Clive — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:17:39 GMT

Hi,

OK.The only advice I can offer is simply to read, and to write, a lot. I'm sure you are already doing these things.

Don't hesitate to post any more questions you may have.

Clive

Re: Origin of definiteness

Believer — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:12:09 GMT

Clive wrote:

Hi,

As you know from our previous discussions, article usage is often difficult to explain, as well as difficult to learn. Sometimes. more then one choice is possible. It often depends on how the speaker is thinking about his topic.

I was looking at the Collins Cobuild Advanced Learner's English Dictionary for the two words 'television' and 'temperature'. My understanding is that a typical dictionary definition would mostly like be written in the pattern of 'a something is a something' or 'the something is the something'. Of course, there will be some exceptions.

At the said dictionary, a definition given among many listed is "Television is the system of sending picutres and sounds by electrical signals over a distance so that people can receive them on a television in their home."

My question is "Why does it have to be 'the system' and not 'a system'? I think both can work in this situation. Yes. 'The' suggests to me that the speaker is thinking that television is the only system that can do that. Perhaps today, in the age of the internet, it might be better to say 'a'?

Also, at the same dictionary, a definition among some others listed is "The temperature of something is a measure of how hot or cold it is." -- Here, my contention is that 'the measure' in addition to 'a measure' can work without making any substantial difference. Does it have to be 'a measure'? I would happily also accept 'the'. However, once again, 'a' suggests to me that the speaker may be thinking that there can be another system for determining hotnesss and coldness.

Let me ask you this, if I may. Do you feel that you are able as yet to write a page of 'ordinary' English without making any mistakes related to articles?

Thank you, Clive. I am not trying to circumvent your question but let me put my answer to your question like this: as you said, according to how I interpreted it, article usage usually are influenced by how a person is thinking at the time of his writing. Many readers might disagree with his uses of articles but to me, that fact doesn't make his usage of the articles he used less valid. I think Mr. M said long ago something to the effect that in order for effective communication to occur, there has to be a mutual understanding and agreement on a writer's article uses in a writing. To me, that means it is best to have agreement on uses but not having agreement doesn't make his writing any less of a writing -- it stilll is a writing to be read, eventhough it might be a less effective one. Right now, I am trying write more and in furtherance of that, I am posting some writings in this forum to get some help. In addition, I am searching free online help sites for writing better to get more information. Do you have any advice for me? I am trying to dive in and learn by doing. I presume what you mean by 'ordinary' English is English for common, ordinary writing, not for formal, research-type writing.

My feeling is that sometimes you just have to jump into the water and start swimming.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: Origin of definiteness

Clive — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 04:57:22 GMT

Hi,

As you know from our previous discussions, article usage is often difficult to explain, as well as difficult to learn. Sometimes. more then one choice is possible. It often depends on how the speaker is thinking about his topic.

I was looking at the Collins Cobuild Advanced Learner's English Dictionary for the two words 'television' and 'temperature'. My understanding is that a typical dictionary definition would mostly like be written in the pattern of 'a something is a something' or 'the something is the something'. Of course, there will be some exceptions.

At the said dictionary, a definition given among many listed is "Television is the system of sending picutres and sounds by electrical signals over a distance so that people can receive them on a television in their home."

My question is "Why does it have to be 'the system' and not 'a system'? I think both can work in this situation. Yes. 'The' suggests to me that the speaker is thinking that television is the only system that can do that. perhapstodauy, in the age of the internet, it might be better to say 'a'?

Also, at the same dictionary, a definition among some others listed is "The temperature of something is a measure of how hot or cold it is." -- Here, my contention is that 'the measure' in addition to 'a measure' can work without making any substantial difference. Does it have to be 'a measure'? I would happily also accept 'the'. However, once again, 'a' suggests to me that the speaker may be thinking that there can be another system for determining hotnesss and coldness.

Let me ask you this, if I may. Do you feel that you are able as yet to write a page of 'ordinary' English without making any mistakes related to articles?

My feeling is that sometimes you just have to jump into the water and start swimming.

Best wishes, Clive

Origin of definiteness

Believer — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 04:38:01 GMT

Hi,

My question is "Why does it have to be 'the system' and not 'a system'? I think both can work in this situation.