http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslGeneralEnglishGrammar-Questions/Forum12.htmAsk your questions on grammar and get your sentence checked. We answer lots of different types of general English grammar questions here. <font color=red>DO NOT post paragraphs and compositions here. Post them in our <a href="http://www.englishforums.com/English/EssayReportCompositionWriting/Forum9.htm"><b>Essay, Report and Composition Writing Forum</b></a>.</font>enXMOD (Build: 3616.28671)http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/4/zrdzr/Post.htm#550521Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:550521Anonymous0http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/4/zrdzr/Post.htm#550521http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-550521.xmlAny verb adding ing is a gerund, and gerunds are verbal nouns. Verbal nouns are nouns that stem from verbs, and I&#39;ve only seen gerunds given as examples of verbal nouns here. Verbs like to accomplish and to move are the stems of the verbal nouns accomplishment and movement. There are other types of suffixes that change verbs into verbal nouns, adding ing is specifically for gerunds.http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#491743Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:491743Cool Breeze1http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#491743http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-491743.xmlA friend of mine was accused of stealing food. is this in a gerund form or no? In my terminology stealing is a gerund like all ing-forms that are caused by a preposition (of). CBhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#491741Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:491741Goodman2http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#491741http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-491741.xmlCheck this out. A friend of mine was accused (of what?) of stealing food . So stealing functions as a present participle in adverbial clause here. A friend of mine was accused (of what?) of being arrogant - Same for this one. Stealing is a crime- Here, stealing is noun/ gerundhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#491676Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:491676Anonymous3http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#491676http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-491676.xmlA friend of mine was accused of stealing food. is this in a gerund form or no?http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#419531Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:419531Ant_2224http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#419531http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-419531.xml&#171;I think I have the advantage of being a native speaker!&#187; Indeed. If you say a phrase is wrong then it's wrong and vice versa. And thanks for sharing your knowledge! &#171;Maybe you feel a difference on the basis of whether the completing phrase is a subject or an object of the -ing word.&#187; Exactly. I even wanted to post some explanations that night: &#171;The drawing of the man was very difficult since the man would not sit still&#187; — here "drawing" is a gerund because one can say (hope I am right about it): &#171;Drawing the man was very difficult...&#187; However, you can't transform "the rustling of the leaves" in a similar way, which makes "rustling" a verbal noun. Same goes to your "ambigous"...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418828Tue, 26 May 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418828CalifJim5http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418828http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418828.xmlI think I have the advantage of being a native speaker! well-being sounds like a noun to me, because I hear it so often as a noun, so I would never call it a gerund. I've never heard barking as a noun, so I call it a gerund. The noun (or 'zero-related nominal') is seen in That dog has a very loud bark, but his bark is worse than his bite. Here I'm going by linguistic intuition alone, of course -- nothing scholarly or rigorous. _______ Maybe you feel a difference on the basis of whether the completing phrase is a subject or an object of the -ing word. Subject of the -ing word after of : the well-being of her subjects &lt;&lt; Her subjects are well. the barking of the dogs &lt;&lt; The dogs are barking. the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418804Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418804Ant_2226http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418804http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418804.xml&#171;The drawing of the man was very difficult since the man would not sit still. [B&amp;S's gerund; the action of making the picture was difficult.&#187; I accept you explanation, but there's a more formal and less fuzzy criteria: the meaning of "of". Again, here "drawing" subdues "man". &#171;Nevertheless in the barking of the dog, barking is an action. It's 'verby' in nature.&#187; Hmmm. From your viewpoint it is a gerund. But there's no subordination according to the B&amp;S's criteria... To help you understand me from _your_ viewpoint, I repeat this seemingly "verby" example from the book: "the well-being of her subjects". It is listed as a verbal noun. I thinks, that's due to the lack of subordination, though you...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418799Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418799CalifJim7http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418799http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418799.xmlCJ: Didn't you pick up that fuzzy approch from my conversation with Bokeh? I wasn't aware of any discussions like that between you and Bokeh, no! CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418797Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418797CalifJim8http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418797http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418797.xmlOK. I see your point. There are some examples of the ...-ing of ... among B&amp;S's 'verbal nouns' as well. In the drawings example, there is obviously another 'verbier' meaning of drawing , which would be the gerund. The drawings in this book are more beautiful than the drawings in the other book. The drawing of the man was very difficult since the man would not sit still . Or Drawing the man was ... Nevertheless in the barking of the dog , barking is an action. It's 'verby' in nature. It is the action of making those noises, an action peculiar to dogs, so I still believe that B&amp;S would call it a gerund. I have no idea what a purely 'nouny' barking could be. There is no such established noun barking in...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418793Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418793Ant_2229http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/3/zrdzr/Post.htm#418793http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418793.xmlCJ and Schetin: The more I understand the less I have to remember. The more deep and fundamental and less superficial (mnemonic, or rules of thumb) the rules are, the better. Of course, the majority of rules emerge in my mind and only part of them I adopt from grammar(s). But the latter rules are the basis (or the skeleton) of understanding. EDIT: Schetin: Those who can't work teach. Those who can't teach, teach how to teach. The worse one's English (I mean myself) is, the more he likes these methodical discussions. CJ: Didn't you pick up that fuzzy approach from my conversation with Bokeh?http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418786Tue, 26 May 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418786CalifJim10http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418786http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418786.xmlYou may feel categorization unnecessary - it's your native language. But you explain it to foreigners. Just a little question. Are you interested in English in the way that a linguist is interested in language generally? Or are you simply trying to become proficient at speaking and writing it? If the former, then the terminology would be valuable, but even then, probably not terminology that's a century old. I'd recommend learning more about transformational grammar in this case. You won't regard that as over-simplified, I guarantee! If the latter, then repeating and imitating the language of native speakers and writers will increase your proficiency much faster than any amount of mastery of the terminology. An...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418782Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418782Ant_22211http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418782http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418782.xmlCJ: &#171;Section 11 (3) has the verbal (abstract) nouns that end in -ing, such as saying, foreboding, meaning, drawing, blessing,&#187; Yes, and there are "the V-ing of" examples among them: 1. The best thoughts and sayings of the Greeks 2. ...the well-being of her subjects 3. The rude drawings of the book 4. the main bearings of this matter They all are called verbal nouns. &#171;Section 273 describes the gerunds and presents the the ...-ing of ... examples&#187; 1. The taking of means not to see another morning had all day absorbed every energy 2. Our culture therefore must not omit the arming of the man. 3. The guilt of having been cured of the palsy by a Jewish maiden. Yes, I overlooked this. But: in all of...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418777Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418777CalifJim12http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418777http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418777.xmlWouldn't it be better to suggest that it's a process and there's no line between the two? No. Not in my opinion -- unless you mean a historical process, perhaps. I believe that there are a lot of cases (like the one I illustrated earlier with saying ) where it is relatively easy to see the difference between an -ing word that's better described as a noun and an -ing word that's better described as a gerund. So I can't agree that there is no line between the two. Rather, as I said, I believe that there is a fuzzy line between the two, simply because there are -ing words that are more difficult to assign one label or another unequivocally. At least it seems that way to me. For example, We saw some very clever...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418772Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418772Schetin13http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418772http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418772.xmlCalifJim wrote: The fact is that in 99% of cases, nothing important hinges on whether or how you subdivide, categorize, and label various uses of -ing words, so it amazes me how much interest there is in the topic. I agree on how, not whether. Labeling things helps a lot in explanations. You can correlate phenomena in different languages if you label them appropriately. You may feel categorization unnecessary - it's your native language. But you explain it to foreigners.http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418769Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418769CalifJim14http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418769http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418769.xml«All examples with the ---ing of --- are called gerunds there.» I must have overlooked something, but I clearly see that all such examples are listed under the caption: "The VERBAL ABSTRACT NOUNS". Correct me if I am wrong. I'm sorry to say that you are mistaken about this. Section 11 (3) has the verbal (abstract) nouns that end in -ing , such as saying, foreboding, meaning, drawing, blessing, ... , whereas Section 273 describes the gerunds and presents the the ...-ing of ... examples. CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418765Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418765CalifJim15http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418765http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418765.xmlDo you mean like 'a bite' from 'to bite'? Yes. English is full of zero-related nominals. Don't you think that in He heard dogs barking barking is a participle? Yes. Did I say somewhere that it wasn't? To me, it's just an -ing word. The fact is that in 99% of cases, nothing important hinges on whether or how you subdivide, categorize, and label various uses of -ing words, so it amazes me how much interest there is in the topic. CJhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418759Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418759Schetin16http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418759http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418759.xmlAnt_222 wrote: I'd say this: Rules describe the language, not define it. Rules follow from the language just like physical laws just reflect reality, not vice versa. Yes, I agree. Ant_222 wrote: Who is simplifying? «I think that trying to simplify understanding the modern grammar makes it more ambiguous , hence even more complex.». CJ wrote: There is a fuzzy line between the two, but in the historical period in which they wrote this grammar it was probably regarded as unscholarly, if not shameful, to admit this. Hence, they say that the two categohttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418751Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418751Ant_22217http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418751http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418751.xmlSchetin &#171;A grammar is only a view of language. No matter what terminology, if it helps avoid mistakes and explain phenomena, then the grammar is good.&#187; Very true. Also I'd say this: Rules describe the language, not define it. Rules follow from the language just like physical laws reflect reality, not vice versa. &#171;I think that trying to simplify understanding modern grammar makes it more ambiguous, hence even more complex.&#187; Who is simplifying? CJ: &#171;All examples with the ---ing of --- are called gerunds there.&#187; I must have overlooked something, but I clearly see that all such examples are listed under the caption: "The VERBAL ABSTRACT NOUNS". Correct me if I am wrong. 1. That's a clever...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418746Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418746Schetin18http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/2/zrdzr/Post.htm#418746http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418746.xmlCJ, He would not sit down until he had had his say in the matter. Do you mean like 'a bite' from 'to bite'? Don't you think that in He heard dogs barking barking is a participle? Compare: She found the room emptyhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418738Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:20:05 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418738CalifJim19http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418738http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418738.xml... the old grammarians would have called 1.1 and 2.1 verbal nouns. No. See below. See Sect. 273 of B&amp;S. All examples with the ---ing of --- are called gerunds there. 1.1 «The singing was excellent» I'm not sure what B&amp;S would call this, but neither verbal noun nor gerund is out of the question. 1.2 «I like singing "Goin' home"» 2.1 «The barking of the dog» B&amp;S would call this a gerund. 2.2 «This dog preferrs barking at drunk men» ... I would characterize the difference by saying that the *.2 usage involves catenative uses of the gerund. These are arbitrary idiomatic usages. Sometimes a catenative verb takes the gerund; sometimes, the infinitive; sometimes either is possible. like...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418735Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418735Schetin20http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418735http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418735.xmlA grammar is only a view of language. No matter what terminology, if it helps avoid mistakes and explain phenomena, then the grammar is good. For Russians traditional grammar is good, because its rules are easier to understand from Russian POV... I remember an American trying to explain the meaning of prepositions to a Chinese... It was something... I think that trying to simplify understanding modern grammar makes it more ambiguous, hence even more complex.http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418708Tue, 26 May 2009 17:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418708Ant_22221http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418708http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418708.xmlThanks for the clarification, I didn't know that source was so old. So, assuming the modern terminology, the term gerund comprehends a much wider class of (?)words. And the "gerunds" in the examples below are very different but all gerunds, while the old grammarians would have called 1.1 and 2.1 verbal nouns. 1.1 &#171;The singing was excellent&#187; 1.2 &#171;I like singing "Goin' home"&#187; 2.1 &#171;The barking of the dog&#187; 2.2 &#171;This dog preferrs barking at drunk men&#187; What I want to say, since the modern grammar hasunified these categories, it still has to distiguish *.1 from *.2 somehow, because the do have grammatical differences as indicated by Baskervill and Sewell. I am sure it does explain the...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418686Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418686CalifJim22http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418686http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418686.xmlAll of your examples are gerunds if we stick to modern terminology. Forget about the terminology verbal noun . It's total garbage! It has many different definitions, depending on the author and when the grammar book was written. _____________ The modern definition is given at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_noun A verbal noun is a noun formed directly as an inflexion of a verb or a verb stem, sharing at least in part its constructions. This term is applied especially to gerunds, and sometimes also to infinitives and supines . That is, there are three types of verbal noun: gerunds, bare infinitives, and full infinitives. So anything that is a gerund is also a verbal noun, because...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418650Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418650Ant_22223http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418650http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418650.xmlOn the definition of the verbal noun: In a neighbor thread called "verbal noun vs. gerund" are stated some features that draw a difference between verbal nouns and gerunds: http://www.englishforums.com/English/VerbalNounVsGerund/zrbgr/Post.htm 1. It differs from the participle in being always used as a noun: It never belongs to or limits a noun. 2. It differs from the verbal noun in having the property of governing a noun (which the verbal noun has not) and of expressing aciton (the verbal noun merely names an action, Sec. II). But for the awkward formulation, they make sense to me. That being said, "a barking of a dog" is a verbal noun...http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418643Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418643Doll24http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418643http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418643.xmlWe call it "fiilimsiler" canım arkadaşım Philip. Believer, give us the definiton of verbal noun so that we can help you. I have never heard it before. If you consider that I am 19, this is normal though. But, I think you will be glad to see this post: http://www.englishforums.com/English/VerbalNounVsGerund/zrbgr/Post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418620Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418620Philip25http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418620http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418620.xmlClive wrote: Hi, I haven't heard the expression 'a verbal noun'. How would you define it? Yes, gerunds can have an article. Clive When I was studying Turkish, we used the term 'verbal noun' to identify a verb form made into a noun by adding suffixes to denote person, possession, time, ability, etc. These one-word items are used to replace what we would use a relative clause to express in English. Turkish is an agglutinative language of the Ural-Altaic branch, and Korean is considered by some to be Altaic. Perhaps there is a relatonship here.http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418610Tue, 26 May 2009 17:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418610Clive26http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htm#418610http://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418610.xmlHi, I haven't heard the expression 'a verbal noun'. How would you define it? Yes, gerunds can have an article. Clivehttp://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htmTue, 26 May 2009 17:20:06 GMT946f00bb-57d3-4b7b-a9a2-059b5341af52:418557Believer27http://www.englishforums.com/English/GerundOrVerbalNoun/zrdzr/post.htmhttp://www.englishforums.com/English/comments12-418557.xmlHi, Please tell me whether the parts mentioned are a gerund or verbal noun. 1. Doll had this writing underneath her recent posts and I think it is called her signature. "Education is not the filling of a pail, but lighting of a fire." W.B. Yeats Are 'filling' and 'lighting' gerunds or verbal nouns? How could you tell the difference? 2. He heard a clamour and a barking of dogs under ... Is 'barking' a gerund or verbal noun? How could you tell the difference? 3. Only salt can preserve things from spoiling . This one seems to be clear and the word 'spoiling' seems to be a gerund with 'from' being a preposition. OK? But if the sentence is changed to (into??) this, then can it make the situation be different? The...