ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Articles (a, an)

Yoong Liat — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:01:34 GMT

Hi Hoa Thai

I've found 'advices' in The New Oxford Dictionary of English.

advice [mass noun] guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative: she visited the island on her doctor's advice / even successful men asked his advice.

[count noun] a formal notice of a financial transaction: remittance advices

(also advices) ARCHAIC information; news: the want of fresh advices from Europe.

Perhaps the last definition and the [count noun] definition where 'advices' is the plural cause people to be confused and use 'advices' in the context of giving somebody advice.

Best wishes

Re: Articles (a, an)

Goodman — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:50:31 GMT

Hi Hoa,

I agree with you. Some non-countable nouns do take on plural form in qualified contexts. A dictionary or a grammar book is a reference to me and I use it only to compare with what I know and for confirmation purpose.

Judging from the way your articulated, I would say you already have established a firm foundation on English. This forum is the place for refining it and we welcome your arrival!

Re: Articles (a, an)

Hoa Thai — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:08:13 GMT

Yoong Liat wrote:
Hi Hoa Thai

From a webpage of Cambridge University International Education and Training Society, http://www.societies.cam.ac.uk/iets/
" ... Summarise general situations and common difficulties for students in graduate, undergraduate, A-Levels and GCSE courses, and provide advices and assistances to individual cases."

The word 'assistances', I believe, is a typo. 'Assistance' an uncountable noun. I've not come across 'assistances'. Could 'advices' be a typo too?

Dear Yoong Liat,

I maybe wrong, but I think people turn a noncount noun into a count noun because of their learning habit in grade schools (fish / fishes, water / waters, lemonade / a lemonade, etc...). The idea is to differentiate two or more types or groups of noncount entities. That is why advice also takes on the plural form. Here are a few examples:

I caught many fish today - no specific type.
Fishes show a starting variety of body forms and behaviors - different types of fish.

Please give me some water - no specific source.
Kayaking on the protected waters of Tomales Bay near San Francisco is fun - different water sources.

My parents give me their advice - no specific, just opinion.
This list contains the official advices from our embassy - various pieces of news / information.

All of the above can be found in dictionaries and usage handbooks. Thus, people like me assume that we can extend the principle to other noncount nouns.

In regards to assistance, one may find many governmental offices pluralize it too. For instance, they try to differentiate FEMA disaster assistance from those provided by various states; and refer to them as assistances.

Back to your question - if we follow the dictionaries strictly, one can assume that the statement given by Cambridge University IETS must contain typographical errors (i.e., by an unconscious action). However, we can also assume that whoever wrote that statement might consciously try to deliver various pieces of news knowing that they violated the so-called good writing practice and went for consistency.

Some people follow the leaders or take part in the majority; others decide to rebel in order to express their opinions, which they believe are more consistent and logical. I, myself, still need much time to learn to decide which side of the fence is right. So far, I believe this forum is the place for me to come for help when I am in doubt. I would appreciate that you could help me polish my language skills by giving me a few writing pointers while reading my replies.

Special thanks to you all,
Hoa Thai

Re: Articles (a, an)

Yoong Liat — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:04:39 GMT

Hi Hoa Thai

From a webpage of Cambridge University International Education and Training Society, http://www.societies.cam.ac.uk/iets/
" ... Summarise general situations and common difficulties for students in graduate, undergraduate, A-Levels and GCSE courses, and provide advices and assistances to individual cases."

The word 'assistances', I believe, is a typo. 'Assistance' an uncountable noun. I've not come across 'assistances'. Could 'advices' be a typo too?

Re: Articles (a, an)

Hoa Thai — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:34:52 GMT

Hi Yoong Liat,

Following your advice that I should refer to dictionaries or English usage books to learn the correct thing, I found this:

From http://www.answers.com/topic/advice?cat=biz-fin&method=26&initiator=FFANS

THE AMERICAN HERRITAGE
adÂ·vice (Äd-vÄ«s') hapes="_x0000_i1025" align="middle" border="0" height="18" width="20">
n.

Opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem; counsel.
Information communicated; news. Often used in the plural: advices from an ambassador.

HOUGHTON MUFFLIN COMPANY (banking dictionary)
advice

noun

An opinion as to a decision or course of action: counsel, recommendation. See opinion.
New information, especially about recent events and happenings. intelligence, news, tiding (often used in plural), word. Informal scoop. See knowledge/ignorance, words.

Regarding others' replies saying mistakes seem to come from the majority of non-native English speakers, please visit the following web sites:

From the majority of American courts - for example http://www.almb.uscourts.gov/Forms/Forms/statement_payment_advices.pdf
"Statement Under Penalty of Perjury Concerning Payment Advices - Due Pursuant to 11 U.S.C. Â§ 521(A)(1)(B)(iv)"

From a webpage of Cambridge University International Education and Training Society, http://www.societies.cam.ac.uk/iets/
" ... Summarise general situations and common difficulties for students in graduate, undergraduate, A-Levels and GCSE courses, and provide advices and assistances to individual cases."

From the transcript of Senator Robert Hill in Australlia, http://www.minister.defense.gov.au/2004/AVF843F.doc
"Well I understand there were some questions arising out of Mr Downerâs comments regarding Turkey and the travel advices."

According to many gurus at this forum, advices should not be used.

Now, I hope you all understand why ESL learners can easily become confused.

Let's table this and go on to something else, shall we? (I will post another question, using a new thread later).

Thank you all,
Hoa Thai

Re: Articles (a, an)

Goodman — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:19:49 GMT

_Hi,

I think I am a little bit late but I still like to pitch in my two cents. There are obvious abstract / non-countable nouns like water, time, sugar, air

and flour etc. They can become countable by means of a quantifier such as âmay I have a glass ofâ water?, âWould you like two spoons of sugar in your coofee? â and âI want to take a walk for some fresh airâ and so on. Along the line of "advice", other similar nouns such as "idea", "concept", and "thought" etc. also fall into the same category because they are not a tangible object. However, we will often find them pluralized. I would say âAdviceâ may be

possible as a countable in certain context in my opinion. i.e.

A- Are you going to Asia on your vacation? This time of the year,I advise you to take along

A can of bug spray.

B- Um..I never thought of it. That's a good piece of advice.

There is no easy rules but a lot of reading and practicing.

Re: Articles (a, an)

Yoong Liat — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:31:04 GMT

I agree with Clive. The writer may not be a native speaker. As I advised earlier, you should refer to dictionaries or English usage books to learn the correct thing.

Regards.

Re: Articles (a, an)

Clive — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:50:55 GMT

Hi,

Would you please look at http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifehack/roundup-11-important-student-tips-and-advices.html and share with me your opinion why the author pluralized 'advice'?

I looked at this site, briefly. I don't know why the author used 'advices'. Why don't you ask him?

I saw a few other things that make me feel the writer may not be a native speaker.

Clive

Re: Articles (a, an)

Clive — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:50:45 GMT

Hi,

Would you please look at http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifehack/roundup-11-important-student-tips-and-advices.html and share with me your opinion why the author pluralized 'advice'?

I looked at this site, briefly. I don't know why the author used 'advices'. Why don't you ask him?

I saw a few other things that make me feel the writer may not be a native speaker.

Clive

Re: Articles (a, an)

Clive — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:50:39 GMT

Hi,

Would you please look at http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifehack/roundup-11-important-student-tips-and-advices.html and share with me your opinion why the author pluralized 'advice'?

I looked at this site, briefly. I don't know why the author used 'advices'. Why don't you ask him?

I saw a few other things that make me feel the writer may not be a native speaker.

Clive

Re: Articles (a, an)

nona the brit — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:46:21 GMT

You are confusing two issues here.

Whether a noun is abstract or not has nothing to do with whether it is count or non-count.

There is no 'rule' to follow to know whether a noun is count or non-count; you just have to learn each individual noun.

Re: Articles (a, an)

Hoa Thai — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:38:23 GMT

Dear Clive,

I can see your thoughfulness and patience via your reply. Please accept my appreciation.

Would you please look at http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifehack/roundup-11-important-student-tips-and-advices.html and share with me your opinion why the author pluralized 'advice'? From such an organization, the author must be considered a literated person who also should have others to review his work too.

About your advice to read a lot from excellent sources, I have been trying. However, if the authors of those excellent sources had given exactly the same advice if they had been posed with the same question, then eventually it would come to a point where a person or a group of persons must have agreed on certain principles of how a word should take on a specific behavior (or could they have actually agreed among themselves and denounced others who have different opinions and eventually the rest of the world just give in and all live happy ever after? , just kidding). I am trying to find out those principles (accepting the rightness of excellent resources without exploring what makes them right and by just simply believing in them does not feel right to me).

Again, thank you for your encouragement and to others for their replies. I really like this forum. My English skill can only be better!

Have a nice day,
Hoa Thai

Re: Articles (a, an)

Hoa Thai — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:05:17 GMT

Dear Yankee,

Since you searched for 'an advice', the hit count is different. Google "advices" and you should find ~6,000,000 hits. The point that I have been trying to make is the countable/uncountable nature of an abstract noun. So not only the use of articles but also pluralization would be involved.

Please also go to this web-page: http://www.rdrop.com/~half/Creations/Writings/GoodAdvices/GoodAdvices.html to find out even literated English native speakers would pluralize the word (i.e., he or she must have believed it is countable). But then again, the author of that page maybe a non-native English speaking person.

Your input brings up another issue - how do you know for sure that an incorrect usage is from a non-native speaker of English? Could you share your observation to help us improve our search? (To not muddle the involved issue, let us first agree that a native speaker is a person who is born and grows up in an English speaking country. So one cannot assume a foreign name or web-site's location would give a clue - for example name of a Chinese American / Britain).

Best,
Hoa Thai

Re: Articles (a, an)

Clive — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:27:57 GMT

Hi again,

If some uncountable abstract nouns can become countable depending on context and some cannot (i.e., forever stay uncountable), then what is the trick or the rule of thumb that I can use to separate them ? I'm inclined to think there is no such trick. That's why learning a language is not a simple task.

If Google hits certainly contain errors; then what sources can we, ESL learners, rely on ? I strongly recommend reading as widely and as much as you can. You also need to check the source of what you read, eg a recognized author who has had some success, a well-known newspaper or magazine. The internet is full of errors and unreliable sources, eg there are legions of blogs by people with terrible English alongside other sources that are excellent and reliable.

If I may ask you directly, what have you done to know for sure that a word is an abstract noun - and it is uncountable in some instances, while in other instances it is countable? I would appreciate if you can walk me through the steps. I don't have a good answer for that. I know the things I know because I have always read a lot. Thanks in advance.

By the way, I looked into New World Dictionary of The American Language, College Edition and found this: advice n. 1. opinion given as to what to do or how to handle a situation; counsel - 2. [usually plural] information or report [diplomatic advices] ! So advice can take a plural form and advice is opinion, but advice is uncountable while opinion is countable (Yoong Liat said so earlier). Definition 2 sounds very odd to me. Perhaps it is trying to speak of what I mentioned earlier as confirmation of a completed transaction. I don't know.

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know." Yes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's better than thinking that you know everything.

I don't mean to sap your confidence or make you uneasy. If you say 'Thank you for the good advices', it is not really a huge error. People will understand your meaning and will certainly not judge you harshly. So, my advice is to relax and to be patient about these matters.

If you have any more questions, on this or any other topic, please post them and we'll try to help.

Clive

Re: Articles (a, an)

Yoong Liat — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:18:28 GMT

Hoa Thai wrote:
Thank you all for your answers. With your advice and after hours of studying various sentences from Google search, I come to the following conclusions:

- Water takes a plural form, waters, to signify the water drawn from different sources. The same idea is apllied for satisfaction as pointed by Yoong Liat. So advice can actually take a plural form as many people believe it should be treated to separate thoughts from different sources (Google search shows almost 6,000,000 entries that use advices).

Yoong Liat - Do you think I am still confused? Yes.

Always refer to a dictionary or an English usage book if you want to get the correct answer. Don't depend on Google.

advice is never used in the plural: a piece of advice, some advice. (Times-Chambers Junior Dictionary)

advice

adÂ·vice (plural adÂ·vices)

noun

Definition:

1. recommendation about action: somebody's opinion about what another person should do
May I give you some advice?

2. official information: formal or official information about something, usually received from a distance ( often used in the plural )

(EncartaÂ® World English Dictionary, North American Edition)