ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Pesky 'that'

PASTEL — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:24:37 GMT

Thank you very much for your reinforcement. I understand it better now.

Re: Pesky

PASTEL — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:19:59 GMT

HAHA. Should I change my screen name to 'headache'? I don't really understand what you meant by saying "I have a headache." I've heard it several times on this forum, from Mr. M, Jim and you. :( In my country, when we said someone is a headache, we mean s/he is a trouble maker and is not welcome by people. So when I heard this sentence from you, I would have questions in mind:

"Am I a trouble maker? Am I that stink? Are my posts unpleasant?"

But I bear in mind that
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Pastel: Would you open the door if I knock?
Mr. M: I'm afraid not because I don't know you.

(chuckles ^++++++^)

Back to my point,

The fact that he is a good teacher is well known.
That he is a good teacher is well known.

That(=he is a good teacher) is well known. 'that' acts like an appositive.
The fact [ =that (=he is a good teacher) ] is well known. 'that' acts like a conjunction that joints the fact and he is a good teacher. As the narrow definition of 'relative pronoun'; that is, relative pronoun functions as conjunction and pronoun, do you think the fact "that" a relative pronoun?

Pastel

Re: Pesky 'that'

CalifJim — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:56:18 GMT

Hi Mr. M!

Yes, there's a reason.
The "that" in 2b functions like a noun in the sense that it is a subject or object, etc. of the clause that contans it.

I saw that last night.
I saw the movie last night. ("that" is "the movie" -- object of the verb "saw")

The "that" in 2a joins the noun "fact" to the sentence "he is a good teacher", i.e., you can't say, in parallel with the example illustrated above,

He is a good teacher that.
He is a good teacher fact. ("that" is the "fact" ? -- subject? object? of what?) [There's nothing to "relate" it to, so it's not a "relative" pronoun.] "that" is not the "fact"; "that he is a good teacher" is the "fact".

The "that" has only a conjunctive role, not a constituent role.

Take care,
Jim

Re: Pesky

miriam — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:38:24 GMT

Hi again, Pastel. You''ve been giving people huge headaches lately! ~L~

What you said in your first post is correct.

There are many nouns associated with this type of apposition: fact, belief, thought, idea, supposition, suggestion, etc.

If your students have problems recognising the nominal clause in sentences of the type of "the fact that he is a good teacher is well known", you can tell them to "omit" the part before the clause. The sentence would then be: "that he is a good teacher is well known". Perhaps it will then be easier for them to see the nominal clause.

Miriam

Re: Pesky

PASTEL — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:05:32 GMT

Ooops, sorry to be a stinker. But I do appreciate your patience.

Pesky

Mister Micawber — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:49:41 GMT

I have a headache, Pastel. Let's wait for some reinforcements, eh?

Re: Pesky 'that'

PASTEL — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:25:35 GMT

(2a) The fact that he is a good teacher is well known.
==> Can you give me a reason why this is a relative pronoun?

(2b) The movie that I saw last night was great!
==> Yes.
==> The movie was great. I saw it last night. 'That' is a relative pronoun here. It is an object pronoun of 'the movie'.

(2c) Is there a reason that these "thats(Do you mean plural?)" are not relative pronouns?

(2d) The 'that' that you've told me is somewhat different from what I've learned.
==> Yes. The second 'that' is an relative pronoun functioning as an object.
(2e) The 'that' that is being discussed in here is getting confusing.
==> Yes. The second 'that' is an relative pronoun functioning as a subject in a passive voice.

Pastel

Re: Pesky 'that'

Mister Micawber — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:30:09 GMT

(2a) The fact that he is a good teacher is well known.

(2b) The movie that I saw last night was great!

(2c) Is there a reason that these "that's" are not relative pronouns?

Re: Pesky 'that'

PASTEL — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:05:52 GMT

Hi, Mr. M,

Thanks for prompt reply. Do you really consider the first one a relative pronoun? A relative pronoun has two basic functions: to connect two ideas as a conjunction and to replace the repeated noun as a pronoun.

Compare:
1) The book that is on the table is mine.
2) The fact that he is a good teacher is well known.
In my first example, that is definitely a relative pronoun functioning as a subject in its adjective clause. However, in my second example, what follows 'that' is a clause with complete S+V structure, unlike the first one. So I don't think it works as a restrictive relative pronoun here, rather, it's a conjunction.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best,
Pastel

Re: Pesky 'that'

Mister Micawber — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:45:14 GMT

I think that they are both adjectival clauses, headed by the restrictive relative pronoun 'that', and modifying their respective nouns... unless this is a trick question.

Pesky 'that'

PASTEL — Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:27:45 GMT

1)The fact that he is a good teacher is well known.
2) The news that he told me yesterday is not true.

Part of speech
1) Conjucntion
2) Relative pronoun, object

that-Clause
1) Noun clasue (Appositive)
2) Adjective clause

What do you think?