ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: A Present Perfect question.

anon1 — Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:28:34 GMT

Hi,

Yes, the "done" examples are difficult.

"Done" sometimes functions as a past participle of do.

There is the idiom of "have done", which can mean completed or finished.

I think "What did you have done?" is a complicated structure for those learning English. For those of us whose first language is English, we have heard this expression many times and it is common to us. But if you don't know the context, I must admit it does sound a bit odd.

But as soon as I picture a person discussing the contruction of his remodeled house to a guest and I imagine the guest saying, "What did you have done?," I immediately understand the sentence.

I am glad you found the information helpful.

MountainHiker

Re: A Present Perfect question.

omnipotensdeus — Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:16:34 GMT

MountainHiker, thank you again for your thoughtful explanation.
I think I've started to get the hang of it, but still wonder why those phrases are not mentioned in grammar books that I have.
Perhaps some other books deal with them.
I think this idiomatic 'have done' must be added to all grammar books, lest learners get confused by it.
I think this forum is awesome and truly educational.
I should be a regular here.

Re: A Present Perfect question.

anon1 — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:37:29 GMT

Sang-Su,

Let's look at each of your phrases in turn.

1) What do you have done?

That's okay. You would likely hear something like,

1a) What do you have done so far?

Imagine a teacher asking a pupil who is working on her homework assignment, "What do you have done so far?"

In essence, "How much have you completed so far?"

Go back and read my post about the idiom "have done".

Sentence ( 1 ) is common.

Altering ( 1 ) slightly, we get ( 2 ).

2) What DID you have done? This is okay. Again, think of my plastic surgery example. Something was done earlier. What was it?

The question (2) is usually used when you have had something altered. It might be your car, your body, your house, etc. Now a guests wants to know what work you had done on the particular object. The guest asks, "What did you have done (to your car)? The "to your car" can be omitted if you both understand the object.

Sentence (2) is common.

3) What have you done? Very common.

Your boss sees you daydreaming. What have you done so far today Sang-Su?

A child breaks something. Mother says angrily, "What have you done?," as she scolds her child.

From GuruNet.com ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
done (dun)
v.
Past participle of do (1).

adj.
1) Having been carried out or accomplished; finished: a done deed.
2) Cooked adequately.
3) Socially acceptable: Spitting on the street is just not done in polite society.

The American HeritageÂ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright Â© 2003 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The meanings between the different sentences differs. You need to use the appropriate form.

Just don't say, "I done good." That is clearly wrong.

I hope this helps.

MountainHiker

Re: A Present Perfect question.

omnipotensdeus — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:18:07 GMT

OK, now I see those "what do you have done" stuff may or may not be wrong.
However, there still is a splinter in my mind.
I'd just like to know how often do you people say "what do you have done?"
or the likes in everyday lives.
Do you frequently say "what do you have done" over "what have you done"?

Re: A Present Perfect question.

ericlimd — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:12:38 GMT

it is not do you have finished, it is a real error, it should be typed or written as

have you finished........ you are correct

it may be in some sites
but it is wrong

try asking someone grammatically competent
you will find out:)

eric

Re: a present perfect question.

Mister Micawber — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:48:29 GMT

An interesting assortment, thanks for finding them.

"Do you have finished product but no way to promote?"-- In this one, 'finished' is an adjective modifying 'product', and the 'have' is the main verb, meaning possession.

"What do you have finished, and what do you plan to finish?"-- This is the instance Mountainhiker was talking about.

"What kind of deal do you have worked out with Bloodbath Records?"-- ditto.

"What Do You Have Done To Your Car?"-- This one ditto, but the tense seems odd. May be OK in context.

"Do you have tested this like me and do you get the error in that case?" -- Error by a non-native writer.

A good case for all who post questions here: please post examples with enough context!

Re: A Present Perfect question.

omnipotensdeus — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:43:01 GMT

Thank you all for your informative replies.
It was so though-provoking that I had to look up my grammar books for an hour.
As is true with any languages, grammar books can't tell everything and
no one can assert that he has impeccable knowledge on a language even if it's his mother tongue. (I sure as hell don't)
I kind of came to a decision that the "what do you have done" thing is one of those that falls into the grey areas.
At least I can be relieved knowing that what I believed right wan't all that wrong.

Mister Micawber, here are some that I got from Google.

"Do you have finished product but no way to promote?"
"What do you have finished, and what do you plan to finish?"
"What kind of deal do you have worked out with Bloodbath Records?"
"What Do You Have Done To Your Car?"
"Do you have tested this like me and do you get the error in that case?"

At first, I thought these were mistakes, and while I was learning and
reading English readings I have never encountered any of this ilk. Still I'm confused...

Re: A Present Perfect question.

Mister Micawber — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 04:43:19 GMT

Absolutely, Sang-su-- the existential 'have' is a remote possibility for what you encountered on the internet. Can you find any of those sources again?

Re: A Present Perfect question.

CalifJim — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 02:59:47 GMT

Heeheehee!

This is a fun thread!

It was like one of those line drawings of a cube that looks like it's tilted upward and coming out toward you and then flips to being a cube that tilts downward and going into the page from you!

It seems nearly any combination of words can have some meaning if you're clever enough to find the context in which it makes sense!

Re: A Present Perfect question.

anon1 — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:15:06 GMT

Sang-Su and Mister Micawber,

I am going to take a slightly different approach in my answer.

What do you have done?

"Have done" is an idiom for finished or completed.

According to GuruNet....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have done

Stop or cease, as in Have doneâenough of this nonsense. This idiom is also put as have done with, as in This arrangement won't work; let's find a new one and have done with it. The past participle done has been used in the sense of âfinishedâ since about 1300.

The American HeritageÂ® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer. Copyright Â© 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I might say to you, "What do you have done and what do you have left to do?"

Translated: "What have you completed and what remains to be completed?"

I am going out on a bit of a limb here (feel free to correct me Mister Micawber), but if you saw a person now looking fantastic who underwent plastic surgery last year, you might say the following.

"What did you have done?"

Translation: What did the plastic surgeon do when he operated on you?

Or you might be admiring your buddy's new hot rod engine.

Wow, that looks great. What all did you have done?

Those are my two cents.

Feel free to pitch in with other opinions.

Hope that helps.

MountainHiker

Re: A Present Perfect question.

Mister Micawber — Mon, 30 Aug 2004 23:35:05 GMT

Hi Sang-Su.

Welcome to English Forums. No, your original assumption is correct. You can find anything on the internet, but it does not mean it can be considered acceptable English unless a googling of the word or phrase hits on hundreds of thousands of pages.

There are many blogs, raves and other individual messages out there that contain atrocious English, of which 'Do you have finished~", "What do you have done?" are cases in point!

A Present Perfect question.

omnipotensdeus — Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:27:24 GMT

Hi, My name is Sang-Su.
I am a college student in Seoul, Korea.
Although I never thought that I was a fluent English speaker,
I think I'm pretty competent at the grammar for a non-native English speaking person.
(unless I'm seriously mistaken about this) OK, enough babbling, let me cut to the chase.

My question is that as far as I know when you use present perfect in questions
you put 'have (has)' right before the subject, so it looks like,
for example, "Have you finished your assignment?".
But, While searching the Internet I found this strange ( at least to me) form of present perfect:
"Do you have finished~", "What do you have done?"
It wasn't just one or two but hundreds and hundreads.
I have been kind of perplexed ever since I saw those seemingly nonsense (to me again) phrases.
It was even disturbing to see that what once was thought to be wrong might be actually right.
Can anyone tell me if I've been totally misled by some short-sighted grammar books?
Any opinion will be greatly appreciated.