ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Marius Hancu — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:19:35 GMT

Hoa Thai wrote:

Regarding âIn these days and agesâ, I still donât understand the reasons for its use by Theodore R. Marmor, et al. or by those you called government bureaucrats. Since those professional native people put that in print, I cannot say that the phrase is âbadâ without a clear understanding. Until the day I find out why, I stick with the idiomatic one, âIn this day and ageâ.

I'd do the same.
Their construction is a bit strange, that's all.
Sometimes, people try to be original just for the sake of it or to attract reader's attention for a brief moment.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Hoa Thai — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 02:39:18 GMT

Hello Marius Hancu,

Thank you for your effort in trying to point me to the right direction. I believe that we are closer than it appears, unless you think otherwise. If you allow me to button up what we have exchanged, here are my conclusions regarding the usage of âIn these days,â:

#1. To mean ânowâ, the phrase is a poor substitute for âThese daysâ, âNowadaysâ, or âPresentlyâ. I believe both of us addressed this in our earlier posts.

#2. When it is used to describe days in the past as in the Princetonâs passage, it is appropriate as you stated in Post: 456735 . I think you would give the same assessment to the text posted on a webpage of Stanfordâs Community Reading Project, http://dickens.stanford.edu/archive/tale/issue5_gloss2.html,

#3. Based on #2, I interpret that âIn those days,â and âIn these days,â are contextually the same but used with different perspectives. The former seems to take a detached viewpoint - the author narrates an event as an outsider; while the latter sends a merging message â the author paints a picture as an insider sharing the eventâs period.

Regarding âIn these days and agesâ, I still donât understand the reasons for its use by Theodore R. Marmor, et al. or by those you called government bureaucrats. Since those professional native people put that in print, I cannot say that the phrase is âbadâ without a clear understanding. Until the day I find out why, I stick with the idiomatic one, âIn this day and ageâ.

Best Regards,
Hoa Thai

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Marius Hancu — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 14:08:04 GMT

>In short, what I have been looking for is an explanation to why âIn these days,â or 'In these days and ages,' is bad.

For the first, see e.g. the difference in meaning outlined for your example which I qualified as poor in the above.

Also for the first, just have a look at how many times you can find "in these days" in this search at BNC:

http://sara.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/saraWeb?qy=these+days

For the 2nd, see the statistics above. If those aren't enough for you (a ratio of 1:1,000), nothing will, and you should ask somewhere else, I don't mind it at all. And if you think you know better, hold on to your own conclusions and apply them, you're more than welcome.

Thus, in conclusion, simply because, in our opinion, they are not idiomatic, i.e. not frequent enough in educated speech, in comparison with the alternatives.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Hoa Thai — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 01:14:24 GMT

Hi Amy,

First, if you'll forgive my saying so, I think you read me wrong when you felt annoyed by me throwing examples to prove my points. I was not trying to prove either you or Hancu wrong but to look for a different answer from just a simple âNoâ or âBadâ. You do understand how learners would feel when they receive such a terse and clipped response â I believe. And often such response would force learners to ask for further clarification. The whole exchange becomes less productive and ineffective.

âYou is stupidâ is definitely wrong no matter how we look at it. However, any phrase, especially a noun phrase with proper order of words, in itself can only be inappropriately / inelegantly used, but âbadâ, which has a wide range of meaning. Of course, âThese daysâ in place of âNowadaysâ is better than âIn these daysâ. However, the latter in itself is not âbadâ.

I believe students would appreciate if teachers can go one-step further telling them that the usage of a phrase does not fit in this way but it would fit well in another way â even when the âanother wayâ is rare. Without a follow up, it could be potentially easy for the students to make another mistake when they think its usage is wrong everywhere, in every application. That is more damaging â I think!

Yes! You are right â I am very stubborn. My most loved teacher said so to me too. I would not accept his teaching if he kept telling me, âit is wrongâ without any further explanation. And if he kept wiggling out of his way by saying nobody uses it, I would come back to show him otherwise if I do find people use it effectively. To me, teaching is the most honored profession because it is done for the benefits of the students more than for those of the teachers. The more one does in a volunteering job, the more one needs to work harder; the more one is honored, the more one needs to show care. Those are just virtues of givers anyway.

You did exactly what I expected from a good teacher. You explained and gave examples when you felt that I did not quite grasp the connection between âInâ and âdaysâ as I made a questionable observation through the plural connection.

You also offered âIn those days,â to replace âIn these days,â. However, as soon as I saw that offer, I sensed that you were telling me that the use of âtheseâ is odd, because âIn those daysâ does not even fit well with the original question, which looked for a ânowâ meaning. As I said earlier, I did not see the oddity of 'In these days' (and I still do not). That is the reason why I kept throwing examples! In fact, if you search for â[In these days,â you should find a lot of hits and they are used by many professional writers (if you allow me to add lawyers to the group ).

In short, what I have been looking for is an explanation to why âIn these days,â or 'In these days and ages,' is bad. You said that people might use them a) for special reasons, b) for their âcompany slangâ, or c) without realizing of making mistakes. No matter what, when reputable organizations publish their works for public reading, they must be aware of the potential impact of every element in prints in spite of usage rarity. Within a group of scholars, oddity does not go unnoticed! They do not think it is odd, but you do. Therefore, I need to know, where such an oddity in your thought comes from. As a learner, I would be regarded as a fool to tell those writers âIn these days,â is bad English. However, as a scholar in the art of using English, you should be able to defend yourself when people ask you why you think so.

Thank you for your assessment about my analyzing ability. However, with what I got, I still donât know why âtheseâ is such a bad word to use in the context of âIn these days,â (starting a sentence and is followed by a comma). Again, it can be inappropriate with an attached context, a relationship to something, but it cannot be âbadâ just by itself.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Hoa Thai

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Marius Hancu — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:48:22 GMT

>If you advice us

------
Immediately after Potsdam, the traditional story of the atomic bomb
flashes to the Pacific theater of World War II for four days: 6-9
August 1945. In these days, atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, and the Soviet Union entered the Pacific War.

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8237.html
-------

Poor example.
The meaning here is during these/those four days, and is appropriate in the context.

It has a different meaning from the original example:

These days, people often promise to improve their health by exercising more, eating healthier or quitting smoking.

where it simply means now, during the times which we live now, today, etc.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Yankee — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:38:02 GMT

Hoa Thai wrote:

As I stated earlier, "In this day and age" is correct. My question is still the same as before: although "In these days and ages" is rarely used, what is the justification to say it is wrong when many professional writers working for trusted sources use it? I think that is a gross misstatement. I strongly disagree that "many professional writers" would choose to say or write "In these days and ages" rather than "in this day and age".

It is possible to find just about any turn of phrase if you look hard enough. Sometimes people will intentionally change a fixed expression for some special reason. In addition, when people speak, they often inadvertently mix or mangle words and make errors that they wouldn't make when they write. There are sometimes expressions that are unique to a particular company or organization. A sort of "company slang" if you will. There are even expressions that are used only within one single family, for example. I know my own family has a few of those. People outside the immediate family wouldn't understand them or would just find them to be quaint or oddball.

At what point would you be willing to consider something incorrect, Hoa Thai? If less than a hundredth of one percent of native speakers use it? Or is it the case that a given expression must result in no Google hits whatsoever before you are convinced?

Are you suggesting I should say things such as "Use whatever words and phrases you like, whenever you like. It doesn't matter whether they're idiomatic, natural, grammatical or not. In fact, you don't need to learn anything about English at all. Just put whatever words you like together in whatever pattern you like." Is that what you think I ought to be telling people?

Regarding "In these days," you believe that it is bad and my counter-examples did not show similar usage. Again, here are a few sources that I think rather reputable, especially the one from Princeton, demonstrate otherwise:

Why don't you attempt an explanation of the usages you found rather than simply posting these examples without any further thought? Have you looked at the contexts you've quoted? Have you digested them? The way you've posted your examples seems to be nothing more than a stubborn effort to prove other people wrong. From what I've seen of your English, it seems to me you are capable of analysis. Why not put some of that talent to work here?

If you advise us not to use the phrases because you have not seen its use, then we could draw our own conclusions instead of believing that they have a flaw due to usage (grammatical or semantical) errors (i.e., 'bad English'). Do you really think that the average ESL student would prefer a comment such as "I've never seen that usage" rather than "No, that isn't typical" or "No, that would be an error"? Do you think most ESL students would like to have us telling them "Oh, yes, you can use that phrase because one person out of every five hundred thousand has used that expression once."

Hi Hoa Thai
My comments are inside the quote in blue.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Hoa Thai — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:02:37 GMT

Marius Hancu wrote:
Re the other one,
the Google hits are quite clear here, IMO:
4,310 for "In these days and ages"
5,420,000 for "In this day and age."
Now, you and/or various governement bureaucrats may want to write the way you want, but I'll keep my opinion.

Also, see what this idiom dictionary mentions:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+this+day+and+age

Hi,

As I stated earlier, "In this day and age" is correct. My question is still the same as before: although "In these days and ages" is rarely used, what is the justification to say it is wrong when many professional writers working for trusted sources use it?

Regarding "In these days," you believe that it is bad and my counter-examples did not show similar usage. Again, here are a few sources that I think rather reputable, especially the one from Princeton, demonstrate otherwise:

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8237.html

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/020316-6.htm

http://www.maec.org/lyons/7.html

If you advice us not to use the phrases because you have not seen its use, then we could draw our own conclusions instead of believing that they have a flaw due to usage (grammatical or semantical) errors (i.e., 'bad English').

Hoa Thai

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Marius Hancu — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:27:42 GMT

Re the other one,
the Google hits are quite clear here, IMO:
4,310 for "In these days and ages"
5,420,000 for "In this day and age."

Now, you and/or various governement bureaucrats may want to write the way you want, but I'll keep my opinion, based on my experience, which BTW is supported by Yankee's, about the idiomatic usage.

Also, see what this idiom dictionary mentions:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+this+day+and+age

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Marius Hancu — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:49:53 GMT

None of your counter-examples has
*"In these days, ...."
at the beginning of the sentence and followed by comma, as in the OP.
In such cases, one should, IMO, use
"These days, ..."

These are important details, at least to me.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Hoa Thai — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:04:54 GMT

Marius Hancu wrote:

"In this day and age"

"In one of my darkest days"
*"In these days and ages"
*"In these days, ...."
"In these days of ...."

Yankee wrote:

"In one of my darkest days" => "on one of my darkest days" / "in one of my darkest hours".
"In these days and ages" => No
"In these days, ...." => No
"In these days of ...." => OK

Hi Amy and Marius Hancu,

We, ESL learners, rely on your words to learn. The problem arises when your words are in conflict with those of professional writers from different trusted sources. We cannot reach the latter group of people to ask for their view. Therefore, we need you to explain to us why you think differently. Otherwise, we will ever wonder how to justify our choice, one way or another.

Attached are a few sources that raise the conflict. Could you kindly review them and share with us your opinions? Moreover, if possible, could you please let us know the reasons behind your choice? About the phrases you rejected, have you not seen their rare use, or you detected a flaw in their usage or my misunderstanding?

Thanks and Best Regards,
Hoa Thai

EDIT NOTE: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you - the teachers, moderators, helpful visitiors, and learners.

*********************

âIn these daysâ :

Virginia Military Institute â From the office of Superintendent, Remarks of Commencement Ceremony - http://www.vmi.edu/Superintendent.aspx?id=746
BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3590795.stm
New York Times - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A00E0DE1F39E033A25751C0A9679C94659ED7CF

âIn these days and agesâ :

Canadian Office of the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs - http://recueil.cmf.gc.ca/en/1997/1998fc21481.html/1998fc21481.html.html

American Government - Department of Health and Human Services - FDA - http://www.fda.gov/cder/present/clinpharm2000/1204preg.txt

In addition, here is an extract from Why Are Some People Healthy and Others Not?: The Determinants of Health of Populations (Social Institutions and Social Change) (Social Institutions and Social Change) (Paperback) â by Robert G. Evans, M. L. Barer, Theodore R. Marmor â page 333:

âThe human being is a biological organism searching for greater scientific understanding and more control over nature in the ever-present search for a panacea, but dreaming also of the highest social evolution possible. In these days and ages, such an evolution entails a new concept of what is a âhygienicâ world.â

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Angliholic — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:13:17 GMT

Yankee wrote:
Now is often more limited or specific than nowadays.

For example, you can say "We have to leave now." You cannot simply replace 'now' with 'nowadays' in that sentence.

Thanks, Amy.

Got it.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Yankee — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:03:45 GMT

Now is often more limited or specific than nowadays.

For example, you can say "We have to leave now." You cannot simply replace 'now' with 'nowadays' in that sentence.

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Angliholic — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:52:37 GMT

Yankee wrote:
Yes, "these days" (without the word 'in') is similar to "nowadays".

Thanks, Amy.

What about "Now?" Do you imply that it doesn't equate "these days/nowadays?"

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Yankee — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:50:08 GMT

Yes, "these days" (without the word 'in') is similar to "nowadays".

Re: These days/Recently/On these days,

Angliholic — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:43:14 GMT

Hi, my helpful friends.

But does "These days" amount to "Nowadays/Now" since it is not synonymous with "Recently?"