ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Confused with verbs

Goodman — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:09:25 GMT

Marius Hancu wrote:
Goodman wrote:

Can i say: It is essential that we be informed of your plans. Yes!

Help him understand - Ok
It is essential that we ~~should~~ be informed of your plans.
We insist that he ~~must~~ be on time

There are those who use modal in subjunctive which in my opinion is improper but some considered it acceptable. I wouldn't not recommend it.

You may want to read (if you find it) the Grammar ... by G. Curme, the best treatment of subjunctive I know (published in the 30s, but re-issued). "Should be" is a legal subjunctive, weaker than "be," in his opinion.

Well there goes nothing! I had this debate many time over the same damned topic previously. You know what ! I was trying to confirm my own knowledge, I did some searching and 20 minutes later, the answers were 50/50 or inconclusive, but amazingly I accidentally came across this:

Moderator MrPedantic Join Date: Feb 2005

Country: England

Location: SE England

First Language: British English

Posts: 1,937

Hello Aurimas

If you leave out the "should" in those sentences, the meaning won't be changed; but in British English, you'll give a greater impression of formality.

For instance, if you were writing a strong letter of complaint about the ticket collector at your local station, you might use the subjunctive version:

1. He is rude, inconsiderate, and thoroughly obnoxious. I demand that he be sacked immediately.

While in conversation or less formal contexts, you would be more likely to use the "should" version:

2. I insisted that he should contact them immediately.

Incidentally, I copied and pasted a couple if interesting threads on this topic:

http://alt-usage-english.org/subjunctive_supplement.html

http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/22159-try-tried.html

Re: Confused with verbs

Goodman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:38:38 GMT

Avangi wrote:

Goodman wrote:
There are those who use modal in subjunctive which in my opinion is improper but some considered it acceptable. I wouldn't not ? recommend it.

Hi Goodman,

Could you please give an example?

- A.

_Avangi,

_{I hope I am not another *** you are after This is what I mennt in my previous thread.}

We might hear people say, for instance, "I insist that he should go at once."

Instead of "I insist that he go at once"? What I neglected to mention was the many moods in subjunctive, However since the question was self-explanatory, I didnât bother with it. The âthoseâ I mentioned refers to the folks who had posted the se threads. In my opinion, the "should" needs to be taken out. Thaat all!

How to Work Out Arguments With a Loved One: how do i understand my ...

If I insist, that he should spend more time with me, he gets irritated.He doesn't take initiative in anything, not even sex.I really have no idea why he ...
en.allexperts.com/q/Work-Arguments-Loved-2268/understand-husband.htm - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

Caring: A Feminine Approach to Ethics & Moral Education - Google Books Result

by Nel Noddings - 2003 - Philosophy - 236 pages
Thus, when I dare to make an ethical judgment of someone else's behavior, when I insist that he should behave as I would in a given situation, ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=0520238648...

Re: Confused with verbs

Marius Hancu — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 23:37:46 GMT

Goodman wrote:
Can i say: It is essential that we be informed of your plans. Yes!

Help him understand - Ok
It is essential that we ~~should~~ be informed of your plans.
We insist that he ~~must~~ be on time

There are those who use modal in subjunctive which in my opinion is improper but some considered it acceptable. I wouldn't not recommend it.

You may want to read (if you find it) the Grammar ... by G. Curme, the best treatment of subjunctive I know (published in the 30s, but re-issued). "Should be" is a legal subjunctive, weaker than "be," in his opinion.

Re: Confused with verbs

Avangi — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:07:41 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:
Why is it correct to not use the subjunctive?

Hi GG,

Perhaps I spoke too soon (again). I can't find the reference I wanted, but this one is amusing:

W. Somerset Maugham said that âThe subjunctive mood is in its death throes, and the best thing to do is to put it out of its misery as soon as possibleâ. An alternative view is that the subjunctive mood remains an ordinary working feature of English grammar, but that it is called moribund because it is often indistinguishable from the ordinary present indicative.

- A.

Edit. Can't find it. They say it's acceptable to replace "if I were" with "if I was" in most registers, but other uses persist.

Re: Confused with verbs

Avangi — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:51:08 GMT

Goodman wrote:
There are those who use modal in subjunctive which in my opinion is improper but some considered it acceptable. I wouldn't not ? recommend it.

Hi Goodman,

Could you please give an example?

- A.

Re: Confused with verbs

Grammar Geek — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:41:57 GMT

I think you're right. I think subjunctive is a mood.

Why is it correct to not use the subjunctive?

Re: Confused with verbs

Avangi — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:35:44 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:
However, in these sentences, you're using a different voice: It's recommended that will be followed by the subjunctive, which uses the bare infinitive form (review, revise) as it does in the stuff you're reading.

Hi GG,

Can I exercise my right to be a jackass? I seem to remember from high school: subjunctive mood; passive voice. Am I wrong?

- A.

Edit. I also meant to ask, since it's now considered correct to not use the subjunctive, what's the alternative?

Re: Confused with verbs

Anewcomer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:19:34 GMT

How if i want to let (tell) (in general) the people know that we are supposed to know the plan (like in essay/story). Can i say it like: It is essential that we are informed of the plans

Re: Confused with verbs

Goodman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 21:07:55 GMT

I already answered your questions in "pink" which were crossed out.

Re: Confused with verbs

Grammar Geek — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:20:00 GMT

Anewcomer wrote:
Sorry, but in my previous question, I asked whether I can say : It is essential that we are informed of your plans. Is it correct? or should i use "be" instead of "are" for "we"

If you want the person to let you know what his plans are, say: It is essential that we be informed of your plans.

Re: Confused with verbs

Anewcomer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:16:47 GMT

Sorry, but in my previous question, I asked whether I can say : It is essential that we are informed of your plans. Is it correct? or should i use "be" instead of "are" for "we"

Re: Confused with verbs

Goodman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:07:17 GMT

Can i say: It is essential that we be informed of your plans. Yes!

Help him understand - Ok
It is essential that we ~~should~~ be informed of your plans.
We insist that he ~~must~~ be on time

There are those who use modal in subjunctive which in my opinion is improper but some considered it acceptable. I wouldn't not recommend it.

Re: Confused with verbs

Anewcomer — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:56:17 GMT

Can i say: It is essential that we are informed of your plans.
Help him understand
It is essential that we should be informed of your plans.
We insist that he must be on time

For alternative purpose

Thanks

Re: Confused with verbs

Goodman — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:30:18 GMT

Anonymous wrote:

Hi, I usually edit some of the stuff my coworkers write around here, I believe I have good knowledge of what I'm doing but now I doubt it because of a document I'm reading right now...

This is how it reads (in many paragraphs):

"It is recommended that the agency review and revise the language on the website..."

My question is about the verbs in italics, I believe that since I'm talking about an agency it should be "reviews and revises"; when I brought this up to my supervisor she said no, because agency is singular, so the verb doesn't have a 's', well, I believe I'm right but as I said before I have doubts now, any help out there?

Thank you!

The experts already answered and commented on your question. Please allow me to throw in my two cents. This is a quite common error in ELS level learners because that was how they were taught on basic grammar. Actually, there is a bunch of verbs that fall into the subjunctive category which overrides the 3rd person singular rules. i.e.

I demand that everyone respect the rulesâ¦

I recommend that everyone be on timeâ¦

I advise that she take the warning seriously (no âsâ)

We insist that he be on time (not is to be)

_{The present subjunctive is most familiar to us in formulaic expressions such as God help him, be that as it may, come what may, and suffice it to say. It also occurs in that clauses used to state commands or to express intentions or necessity}

_{We insist that he do the job properly.}

_{The committee proposes that she be appointed treasurer immediately. (notice the main sentence is using the 3rd person/ singular while the clause was not!)}

_{It is essential that we be informed of your plans. Hope that helps...}

Re: Confused with verbs

Marius Hancu — Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:28 GMT

I am
you are
she is
I was
I will be

are all indicatives

Do some searches, say for
indicative grammar
indicative wikipedia
at Yahoo, also for
indicative
at this site (top right corner).

ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

How to Work Out Arguments With a Loved One: how do i understand my ...

If I insist, that he should spend more time with me, he gets irritated.He doesn't take initiative in anything, not even sex.I really have no idea why he ...en.allexperts.com/q/Work-Arguments-Loved-2268/understand-husband.htm - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

Caring: A Feminine Approach to Ethics & Moral Education - Google Books Result

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

Re: Confused with verbs

If I insist, that he should spend more time with me, he gets irritated.He doesn't take initiative in anything, not even sex.I really have no idea why he ...
en.allexperts.com/q/Work-Arguments-Loved-2268/understand-husband.htm - 19k - Cached - Similar pages