ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:48:32 GMT

Hello Goodman, Your compliment gives me a satisfaction of course,and it encourages me to go further in my learning.Really nice to hear from someone who is certainly competent to assess someone's knowledge.Many thanks again for participating in this interesting discussion Goodman.Many thanks to Ant 222 for his discussion on the point which get off the initial question but was really inspiring to me and thanks Kooyeen for the help on the original question. Best wishes Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Ant_222 — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:19:28 GMT

Goodman: Â«However, I see room for tone and structure improvements! many learners are too focused on the grammatical aspects and neglected on structure and tone, or vise vera. Ultimately, their writing is often compromised.Â» Yeah, you are so right... I feel that me own balance is indeed shifted towards grammar... That's due to tone, style and vocabulary requiring a lot more patience and practice.

Re: Two question about "where"

Goodman — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:09:38 GMT

Velimir wrote:
Hello Goodman, First,thank you for sharing your experience in learning.And thanks for the corrections you give,I really appreciate it. It is very helpful to have someone to point to errors in writing or speaking a language. In brief,my handicap is that I don't live and don't work surrounded with english.It is a great handicap.I don't have a chance to use what I know.To improve and correct my language.Moreover,I'm not much of a movie fan,so it is another handicap on my account.That's why the informal english is still a slippy terrain for me.But I'm gradually moving my focus towards it. To use your words,I am trying to achieve the balance in my learning.But I think I've written enough of it,I will not repeat myself.I think I know what I am to do to speed up the process of learning. Thank you again for inspiring discussion Best regards Velimir

Hi Velimir,

If it gives you any satisfaction, allow me to tell you that your English actually is quite good from my vantage point for someone who lives in a non-English speaking country. You brought up a key point which I have emphasized before which is âexposureâ. For English speaking natives, this is not a problem until they learn another language. For foreign learners, itâs extremely important because increased exposure actually helps to develop second-nature English, just like native toddlers learning to speak. As long as learners are able to recognize their weaknesses in English and willing to humbly accept advice and constructive criticism in an effort to improve their language skills, they will continue to see the positive difference in their speech and writing. I can guarantee that and your are on the right track.

Keep it up!

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:55:39 GMT

Hello Goodman,

First,thank you for sharing your experience in learning.And thanks for the corrections you give,I really appreciate it. It is very helpful to have someone to point to errors in writing or speaking a language.
In brief,my handicap is that I don't live and don't work surrounded with english.It is a great handicap.I don't have a chance to use what I know.To improve and correct my language.Moreover,I'm not much of a movie fan,so it is another handicap on my account.That's why the informal english is still a slippy terrain for me.But I'm gradually moving my focus towards it. To use your words,I am trying to achieve the balance in my learning.But I think I've written enough of it,I will not repeat myself.I think I know what I am to do to speed up the process of learning.

Thank you again for inspiring discussion

Best regards

Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Goodman — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:54:05 GMT

Hi Velimir.

I appreciate your agreeing comments. In part, I also agree with what you said. I must disclaim. I have no higher ambition in the learning of English than to achieve a respectable fluency and to use English properly. In all my professional and personal life, I have this philosophy which is never do anything just to get by and be the best I can be. Naturally, this perfectionism can be a problem in workplace because often what is acceptable to others seems sloppy to my expectation. In an ideal world everything should be balanced. You are absolutely correct about every learnerâs learning situation is different. Different academic background, level of perseverance and endurance, will power and methods in which he uses in the learning all play a part in the success. In my observations, I see many learners use the wrong approaches and methods. I had mentioned several times in this forum. We just can not learn good English properly with our brains still thinking in our own language. However, this comes naturally and the hard part is to learn to think and live in English. This adaptation does take time but it can be done. Once we feel comfortable with this transformation, we will find ourselves having to do less and less grammar and context translation from your own tongue to English. As a result, the fluency will improve. For ESL level learners, the awkward sounding English is the result of this translation process. Believe or not, watching âDiscovery Channelâ and BBC programs were the best thing I ever did during the first few years of my learning. They helped shape my vocabulary, speech pattern and usage tremendously. We all have our own opinions about how other people did with their English and often fail to recognize our own grammatical flaws, and that includes me. I believe in taking every opportunity to express myself in this acquired language to improve speech fluency and the ability to deliver thoughts and ideas. I hope I am making sense and not boring people to tears! Incidentally, you need a "space" between sentences and watch for puncutation and errors; if you don't mind my pointing it out ...

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:21:28 GMT

Hello Ant 222,

First,thank you for the compliments.It means to me.
Excuse me for misinterpreting your message it was not intentional.I'm glad we agree on this point,but it would also be ok with me if we do not.There is always room for every sort of opinion.I think that a native english-speaking person would say in this context like: "nothing is written in stone".Smiley.Thanks again.
I agree too on "<<<Furthermore, I try to understand things logically and find explanations for every problem so that I won't have to simply memorize things! ",and I would add here that it is exactly what grammarians do.They establish logic i.e regularities in the language to ease memorizing vocabulary.

Hello Goodman,

I agree with your point of view.I specially subscribe to the part "..learners must in time learn to develop a balance in learning." But also I add that the balance is not a clearcut concept and is not universal.What makes optimal balance is dependent on the learning situation.I will cite here my own discerning thought(smiley) from previous post : "So,your learning situation and my learning situation are two different situations".So the balances are different.For example,although we agree on the matter in general,maybe Ant 222 and I disagree whether this question(what is the form of "where"..)is necessary knowledge to strike that optimal balance.
I think that this issue is incredibly complex,have so many different aspects,and is influenced by so many factors,that you can never say to somebody what is the right way like : "Dude,follow the road to the junction and then turn left..".or "scramble three eggs,put a spoonful of sugar and then mix until your arm is numbed..".Maybe closest to the truth would be if we say that everything matters.But one should say as the following to it that it is important to set apart what is consequential from inconsequential(or less consequential),in his/her learning of the language.And that is also a scientific method of acquiring knowledge.That is,grammarians analyze the language and then synthetize it in some convenient chunks and the learner should understand the gist of it and use it as a construction on which he/she will build his/her vocabulary.Still,a learner can be close to mastering that gist of the grammar and find himself in a situation that his vocabulary is awkward,funny or unintelligible,or at least that he leave the listener with the impression of talking with Queen Elizabeth when he wanted to sound like the frontmen of 50 cents or vice versa,or most probably neither of that options,but he wanted just a regular chat.There is a lot sweat until we esl learners grasp the language so well to avoid such things.Besides,there is always question what is his/her learning objective.The question of utilizing is also a broad concept.If you learn because you need to know english only to communicate with your customers on the local market then less will do,i.e:

Buy oranges.Two oranges for twenty cents.I give one free when you buy two.

As to the sale,this is a quite good level of utilization.Whether the customer will utilize the oranges is up to oranges,some preposition more or less will not make difference.
The opposite extreme of a personal ambition would be to learn with ambition to write bestselers or so.And on that scale of ambition you could line up EFL learners as well.With my "not so good" english I'm able to make a difference between speakers which language is too rich with "and" and with too many "so",along with "uh" every now and then,and those who speak smoothly.The first may ruin the best idea with such language and former can make some stupidity sounds groundbreaking.

Best regards and thanks for the discussions

Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Goodman — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:49:04 GMT

<<<<Such concepts as tense, gerund, participle, clause (and classification thereof) are wihtout a slightest doubt useful and sometimes even essential to the learning of English (at least, this is so for me).

<<<Furthermore, I try to undrstand things logically and find explanations for every problem so that I won't have to simply memorize things! - I agree with you. However, I see room for tone and structure improvements!

Without taking side, I would like to share my 2 cents' worth. I always feel that if one is not born an English speaking native and his ultimate goal is to be able to write and speak English like a master, he is in for a long-agonizing journey. I have been at it for 20 years and still painfully working on getting it perfect. I realize that I often made careless errors, such as missing an "s" here and there and misspellong word etc. That, I think is something I have to work on but is tolerable to myself, as long as I know my speech and sentence structure are gramamtically sound and the meaning is getting across. For learners, it's extremely benifitial to possess a good understanding on all aspect of English, but in real life I dare say, many are not in that category, including natives. Frankly, more than a few don't even know and could care less what "past perfect tense" is. I don't mean to antagonize anyone. That's how I see it. That's said, learners must in time learn to develop a balance in learning. By that, I mean learning the fundanentals and applying them gramamtically correct in their writing without suffering from the"unnatural" sound. What I see is, many learners are too focused on the grammatical aspects and neglected on structure and tone, or vise vera. Ultimately, their writing is often compromised. I have been there. Believe me!

Re: Two question about "where"

Ant_222 — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 19:43:25 GMT

Thanks for that long and interesting post, Velimir!

«Let me be allowed to advise you not to fall for that kind of reasoning.I mean "Look at me,I'm a miracle,I speak english gorgeuously and I don't have to learn grammar",that kind of reasoning.»

I didn't get me right. I was talking about the usefullness of certain aspects of grammar. Part of them (a greater part!) I of course find useful. It's just that some very deep theoretical investigations in the field a purely of scientific interest. Plus I can use the word "where" very well without having to decide which part of speech it is first.

Such concepts as tense, gerund, participle, clause (and classification thereof) are wihtout a slightest doubt useful and sometimes even essential to the learning of English (at least, this is so for me).

Furthermore, I try to undrstand things logically and find explanations for every problem so that I won't have to simply memorize things!

«If you give proofs that it is just a useless entertainment for idle men then you'll make a scientific breakthrough,and not only in the field of language.Here goes one smiling smiley.»

Nah, I am not gonna do no such thing for I do agree with the opposite!

BTW, it is so good a post that I'd make it a sticky so that every ESL learner could read it, frankly!

P.S.: So don't fall into the delusion that you have _converted me_. I already was of that opinion.

Re: Two question about "where"

Goodman — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:22:34 GMT

Glad I can help!

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:31:00 GMT

Hello Goodman,

Thank you for the elaborate answer.I've used the link and found the site very useful,thank you very much.

Best regards

Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:27:21 GMT

Hello Ant 222,

I wouldn't say that the answer on your question is so clearcut,that's all.What I'm saying is that grammar speed up the process of the acquisition of the language.And it is beyond doubt.One reason I often come across in discussion on this issue is that a native learner may never learn grammar and still you will never have his/her grasp of language,and you can learn grammar as much as you want.Such comparison is ridiculous.Put somebody in the situation to live the language,to make for living surrounded with that language,to ask for a glass of water,or a piece of bread,and I bet he'll learn the hardest chinese dialect in no time,along with the whole trillion symbols of alphabet if needed.But people like to make things complicated when they are not. I've read an interesting sentence in one post on the forum nearby:

"Chomsky suggested that children have a built-in mechanism, which he called the Language Acquisition Device, or LAD, which pre-programs them to develop grammar based on the linguistic input they receive."

Although I don't know the context of this sentence,I understand that children have a knack for languages and all other mankind doesn't.That is,children have one device for automatic learning and when they grow up that LAD gadget break down and they are not able to automatically learn anymore,and they have to fetch grammar if they want to learn a language.
Here goes a few trillions of smiling smilies.That would make learning of language very much similar to "Star Wars" or so.I would say that people enjoy making miracles out of everything.Let me be allowed to advise you not to fall for that kind of reasoning.I mean "Look at me,I'm a miracle,I speak english gorgeuously and I don't have to learn grammar",that kind of reasoning.

As to the learning of a second language,I believe that circumstances in which the learner lives make a difference.First of all,the need to use the language daily,how much you read,how much you listen the language,which depends on his/her place of living,job, his/her affinities i.e personality,lifestyle etc.So,your learning situation and my learning situation are two different situations.More or less different.An immigrant who lives in the USA and is exposed to the english language daily,will need less grammar stuff to learn,and I need more to know about it.It is simple as that.And although,the learning of a language is pretty specific,still it doesn't mean that you don't need grammar at all.I mean you may not need a spade to dig a hole,you can dig it with your fingers,but you'll certainly find a spade helpful.If you know what I mean.Grammar gives the basis i.e the logic for learning.What grammar does is the analysis of the mechanics of a language(i.e cutting into pieces)and then put it together in the way which will make it easier to you to learn.By the way,I remember it from high school that analysis and synthesis are scientific methods in acquiring (any) knowledge.If you give proofs that it is just a useless entertainment for idle men then you'll make a scientific breakthrough,and not only in the field of language.Here goes one smiling smiley.

I think that if an ESL learner avoided confusion caused by different terminology for the same concepts (which is a major problem)and occasionaly manage to find some help when he is baffled(as it is possible from this forum for example) he'll find grammar helpful,and will not shy of it.And there is no reason for that since in essence it is not difficult,so you can read it even if you don't see its real value,and don't worry about your health,it will not put some special strain on your brain.Only when you read it and understand it you will know whether it is worth reading.
I think that Quirk gave neatly arranged structure for a correct acquisition of a language i.e its vocabulary. One can learn the bulk of the english language with the help of his grammar,of course paralelly with learning the vocabulary.Let's say 90% of it,and if somebody want to split hairs he may freely turn linguist,or if he want to learn some expression of Texas shepherds which he didn't understand and it gave him a headache,or solve logical puzzles in your leisure time,he can post a question on some forum.Or something.

Best regards

Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:27:00 GMT

Hello Ant 222,

I wouldn't say that the answer on your question is so clearcut,that's all.What I'm saying is that by using grammar you speed up the process of the acquisition of the language.And it is beyond doubt.One reason I often come across in discussion on this issue is that a native learner may never learn grammar and still you will never have his/her grasp of language.Such comparison is ridiculous.Put somebody in the situation to live the language,to make for his/her living surrounded with that language,to ask for a glass of water,or a piece of bread,and I bet he'll learn the hardest chinese dialect in no time,along with the whole trillion symbols of alphabet if needed.But people like to make things complicated when they are not. I've read an interesting sentence in one post on the forum nearby:

"Chomsky suggested that children have a built-in mechanism, which he called the Language Acquisition Device, or LAD, which pre-programs them to develop grammar based on the linguistic input they receive."

Although I don't know the context of this sentence,I understand that children have a knack for languages and all other mankind doesn't.That is,children have one device for automatic learning and when they grow up that LAD gadget break down and they are not able to automatically learn anymore,and they have to fetch grammar if they want to learn a language.
Here goes a few trillions of smiling smilies.That would make learning of language very much similar to "Star Wars" or so.I would say that people enjoy making miracles out of everything.Let me be allowed to advise you not to fall for that kind of reasoning.I mean "Look at me,I'm a miracle,I speak english gorgeuously and I don't have to learn grammar",that kind of reasoning.

As to the learning of a second language,I believe that circumstances in which the learner lives make a difference.First of all,the need to use the language daily,how much you read,how much you listen the language,which depends on his/her place of living,job, his/her affinities i.e personality,lifestyle etc.So,your learning situation and my learning situation are two different situations.More or less different.An immigrant who lives in the USA and is exposed to the english language daily,will need less grammar stuff to learn,and I need more to know about it.It is simple as that.And although,the learning of a language is pretty specific,still it doesn't mean that you don't need grammar at all(as an ESL learner)since it gives the basis i.e the logic for learning.What grammar do is analysis of the mechanics of a language(i.e cutting into pieces)and then put it together in the way which will make it easier to you to learn.By the way,I remember it from high school that analysis and synthesis are scientific methods in acquiring (any) knowledge.If you give proofs that it is just a useless entertainment for idle men then you'll make a scientific breakthrough,and not only in the field of language.Here goes one smiling smiley.

I think that if an ESL learner avoided confusion caused by different terminology for the same concepts (which is a major problem)and occasionaly manage to find some help when he is baffled(as it is possible from this forum for example) he'll find grammar helpful,and will not shy of it.And there is no reason for that since in essence it is not difficult,so you can read it even you don't see its real value,and don't worry about your health,it will not put some special strain on your brain.Only when you read it and understand it you will know whether it is worth reading.
I think that Quirk gave neatly arranged structure for a correct acquisition of a language i.e its vocabulary. One can learn the bulk of the english language with the help of his grammar along with learning the vocabulary.Let's say 90% of it,and if somebody want to split hairs he may freely turn linguist,or if he want to learn some expression of Texas shepherds which he didn't understand and it gave him a headache,or solve logical puzzles in your leisure time,he can post a question on some forum.Or something.

Best regards

Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Goodman — Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:35:54 GMT

Velimir wrote:
Hello everybody, I have two questions about the word "where" . 1.I've been told that "where" in the following sentence is a pronoun by its form : Where did you get to? And the explanation is that in possible answer like: I got to page 4. it stands for the noun phrase "page 4". If it is a pronoun in this sentence,is it because of the stranding of the preposition,or in any question beginning with "where" it is to be understood as a interrogative pronoun,not an adverb.(i.e "Where are you going" --> "I am going to London",would it be interpreted that "where" stands for the noun "London"). 2.When "where" is used as a subordinator to join two clauses like in the following sentence: a) Macy's is the place where I buy my clothes. what is "where" by its form in the subordinate clause "where I buy my clothes",a pronoun or an adverb? And if "the place" is left out like: b) Macy's is where I buy my clothes. does it change anything? Is "where" to be understood as a pronoun (and what noun it replaces then),conjunction,or an adverb. Many thanks Velimir

Hi Velimir,

One of the functions of where, when, who ,what and which is to form a question. i.e. Where have you been! In this usage, itâs an adverb for places and locations.

When did you call? â âWhenâ, like âwhichâ and âwhatâ is also an adverb, and it infers time.

Another function for these words is a conjunction which joints two separate concept or ideas together in a single sentence. i.e. âIt was eight in the evening when she came homeâ.

âI saw a man who looked to be at his late 20âs coming out of your house around 4 in the afternoon when I came home from school.â This sentence contained 2 relative pronouns :who and when.

This may help you.

http://grammar.uoregon.edu/pronouns/relative.html

Re: Two question about "where"

Ant_222 — Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:35:05 GMT

You're welcome, Velimir!

I don't know the answer to your question and I am glad of that! I don't think this sacred knowledge may be utilized in practical English, although it's a must for those mastering in theoretical grammar.

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:30:28 GMT

Hello again,

I would say too that it is a tricky question for non-professionals like us Kooyeen.Thank you again for giving your explanation.By the way,I've read a good joke about this "Where are you going to".Maybe its an old joke,but I've read it only recently,so here it is :

A: Where're you going to?

B: Hey dummy, don't you know you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?

A: Oh yeah; where're you going to,d...head ?

As to emoticons,unfortunately,I don't see "insert smiley",probably because of the browser(I use Opera,and I like it).

Hello Ant 222,thank you for joining this post.And thank you for giving me a chance to give one answer myself.

"The question is: "Why do you need to know it? Will it make your English better?"

The answer is: "Absolutely."

Here goes one smiling smiley.

Best regards

Velimir