ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:21:17 GMT

Hello Goodman!

I wanted to add a few more things to what I said. Now that you know I am in high school, I think I should also tell you that my school-leaving-examination is just a week away. And why should you know that? It's because I spend a lot of time online replying to you and that doesn't help much with my studies, does it?!

I cannot control the urge to respond to your posts and hence I request you to not post in reference to the topic any more! Please let your next post be the last post on this thread! I hope you understand.

Here are my conclusions -

I admit that the tone of my questions could have been better (I still don't know why or how, but I trust what you say) but I do not agree that I should not have asked the questions. However, if that's the way things work here, I am quite ready to change.
I still believe that you could have been a bit softer on me while offering the advice, but I am grateful that you did.

Thank you very much! You have proved to be of great help! I would love to see your replies to questions I'll be asking in a month's time from now!

Please understand that I respect you and your opinion. If anything that I said sounded disrespectful, arrogant or discourteous, I apologize from the bottom of my heart.

I hope that I'll hear from you again! Thanks!

Take care!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:38:28 GMT

Hello Goodman!

I know you don't like the 'highlighted style' that I use, but that's the way I write! I'll explain it beneath the relevant highlight in the post!

If what you said is true, then as the previous Anonymous poster had said âyou ought to be proud" and complimented.

Thanks for the appreciation! But I would like to make it clear that I don't like your expressing doubts about my identity.

To be honest with you, I lost interest in your first post halfway because of the tone you used in the blog piece. I thought it was wordy and boring. Nothing personal, that how it sounded to me.

So it was that bad! You could have said as much in your first post on the thread!

If you are truly writing as a seventeen year old living in a small town in India, my hat is off to you!

Once again, thanks for the compliments! But that 'if' takes the shine off it.

From gathering the bit and piece, I detected a strong personality and eagerness in you to excel. That âtoneâ is recognizable and you definitely know how to set it.

It's not like I do not know how to set the right for my words, but it's just that I cannot do it every time I write and for every emotion I want to express. Sometimes (as in your case) things that I don't actually mean are conveyed and then I find myself writing half a dozen posts defending myself!

I was raised in a different generation when respect, humbleness and appreciation were taught from the elders. When we asked others for help or learned a skill from a master, we were taught to ask in a humble and respectful tone and never to rebut the answer or question the master despite of uncertainty to the answer. This was the âtoneâ I was referring to.

1. Let me make it clear that I did not know that my tone was not humble and respectful. I think you understand that by now! It would be very kind of you if you could tell me how you would have asked those questions.

2. I don't think questioning your master or not accepting his/her answers because of uncertainty about them is a bad thing at all. Questions are the fountainhead of all human knowledge. I don't think I did anything wrong by asking Mister Micawber to explain why 'school life' was wrong. If I don't ask, I'll never learn. I have been raised in a different (Indian) genertion when students are encouraged to question their masters, debate their answers and, if required, challenge them as well. If all this is done in an appropriate manner, nobody takes offence.

And since I cannot always sure about 'the appropriate manner' while using a foreign language, it's quite possible that I'll make mistakes, isn't it?

And if you are trying to tell me that asking extra quetions seeking clarifications isn't quite appropriate, then please say so and I'll take care not to ask them in the future.

The âhigh lightedâ style you used in your response, to me signifies a challenge. I donât know if others see it the same way.

The highlighted style that I use is a common practice on Indian websites. It's not meant to 'signify a challenge'. It simply makes one's posts look more attractive, better organised and easier to read - at least that's what most Indians think.

Does the India education system use English materials in their high schools? In some other countries, even mandatory English high school does not produce students with your level of English. I presumed you are in high school, arenât you?

Yes, I'm in high school. Most people send their children to English-medium schools where the medium of instruction is English. But that does not prove to be of much help, as most teachers speak grammatically incorrect English and no one really knows that they speak wrong English. Hence, you'll find many Indians who'll speak English confidently and fluently but not grammaticallly. English is a mandatory subject for every school student in most education boards in the country, but it's such a big farce that you can't even begin to imagine!

See you!

PS - I am quite sure that I have committed quite a few mistakes in this post. I shall be ever so grateful to you if you could kindly tell me the mistakes.

Re: Please edit this for me!

Goodman — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:59:17 GMT

Hi Ashish Tiwari,

You seemed to have the ability to keep me intrigued and puzzled. As I had stated, I see very little problem with you English, other than the âtoneâ you used which was the cause for our e-mails exchange. If what you said is true, then as the previous Anonymous poster had said âyou ought to be proud" and complimented. To be honest with you, I lost interest in your first post halfway because of the tone you used in the blog piece. I thought it was wordy and boring. Nothing personal, that how it sounded to me. Other may disagree but truly that was how I saw it. But then in your responding e-mails, you all of a sudden transformed into another persona with commanding choice words and writing skills. If you are truly writing as a seventeen year old living in a small town in India, my hat is off to you! From gathering the bit and piece, I detected a strong personality and eagerness in you to excel. That âtoneâ is recognizable and you definitely know how to set it. I was raised in a different generation when respect, humbleness and appreciation were taught from the elders. When we asked others for help or learned a skill from a master, we were taught to ask in a humble and respectful tone and never to rebut the answer or question the master despite of uncertainty to the answer. This was the âtoneâ I was referring to. I guess I was expecting too much from a 17 year old. The âhigh lightedâ style you used in your response, to me signifies a challenge. I donât know if others see it the same way. Does the India education system use English materials in their high schools? In some other countries, even mandatory English high school does not produce students with your level of English. I presumed you are in high school, arenât you? This is the first time Iâve ever communicated with someone from India who has this level of commanding clarity.

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:20:40 GMT

Hello Goodman!

Judging by the sound of your last couple of postings, itâs increasingly convincing to me that you are not a beginning learner. In fact, you may be toying with us.

I had good laugh reading this! I have clearly stated in my biography (on the website, of course) that I am a seventeen-year-old boy from a small town in India (still a Third World country)! That should be enough to reassure you that I really am a 'beginning learner'! I try my very best not to make grammatical mistakes, that's it!

I may even have to learn a thing or two from you!

Believe me, you have exaggerated wrong notions about my knowledge of the language. I am sure you'll soon notice something (may be in this post itself) that will convince you that I am not that good after all!

The only difference is the bluntness, of which you are the winner.

I thought it was the other way round! But then I guess I really have no command over the tone that I unintentionally use.

There is a saying passed down from my ancestors which essentially means âthe only good medicine is the bitter kind and the kindest advice is the harsh criticismâ. I am not sure if you understand this saying. Nonetheless, I consider what I offered was friendly advice, not even bitter medicine.

There are lots of such sayings in my mother tongue and I fully understand what they mean. I thought your 'friendly advice' was 'stinging criticism'. Believe me, it sounded like that. Perhaps it's because of the influence of my mother tongue that I thought it didn't sound friendly. The tone that you adopted closely resembles the tone of 'heavy sarcasm' in Hindi. Or it could be just that I can'tt take criticism. I think I'll soon find out if that's the case.

If you take it as undeserving crticism, then definitely we don't travle on the same paths.

Honestly speaking, I still do not understand what the criticism was about. I request you to exactly pinpoint the reason why what I said sounded discourteous. That would help me a lot.

Having said that, I did give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not aware of your own tone.

Finally, you understood! Isn't it sufficient to prove that I am just a beginner?!

Learning English is much more than learning the tenses and building a rich vocabulary but also developing an ability of distinguishing the right tone from the not so right tones.

If there is one thing that I have learnt today, then it is that the 'tone' really matters! I have learnt the tenses, developed a good vocabulary (well, I think it's good) and now that you have set the tone with your criticism (can't think of any suitable adjective!), I will try to learn how to get the tone right!

Thank you very much! Kindly keep pointing out my mistakes!

I look forward to hearing from you! See you!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:22:27 GMT

Hello Anonymous!

Thanks for your words of appreciation! I feel better now! Never had I imagined that someday I would have to defend myself for being 'discourteous'. In real life, I try to live up to to the standards of 'good behaviour' as set by my culture and society and all of a sudden, in the online world, I found myself at the receiving end of some scathing criticism accusing me of not being courteous!

I thought I was having a nightmare or what! I could not and still do not understand what I wrong I did to invite such critical responses.Your words have lifted my spirits!

Thank you so much!

And, yes, you guessed it right - I am fully committed to learning English. I request you (and everybody else, for that matter) to point out any mistakes that they find in anything that I write. I am actually thinking of changing my signature requesting people to do so!

Once again, thank you very much!

Good luck to you as well!

PS - And I am a boy!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Goodman — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:07:35 GMT

Hi Ashish Tiwari,

Judging by the sound of your last couple of postings, itâs increasingly convincing to me that you are not a beginning learner. In fact, you may be toying with us. I may even have to learn a thing or two from you! One thing striking me odd from these mind exchanges which was we both are not shy about expressing how we feel. The only difference is the bluntness, of which you are the winner. There is a saying passed down from my ancestors which essentially means âthe only good medicine is the bitter kind and the kindest advice is the harsh criticismâ. I am not sure if you understand this saying. Nonetheless, I consider what I offered was friendly advice, not even bitter medicine. If you take it as undeserving crticism, then definitely we don't travle on the same paths. . I donât know you so I wonât, and canât judge you but I can definitely feel the tone in which you expressed yourself in and the words you used. And so I gave you my two cents. Having said that, I did give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not aware of your own tone. Learning English is much more than learning the tenses and building a rich vocabulary but also developing an ability of distinguishing the right tone from the not so right tones.
You seemed very apologetic and sounded like an decent guy (I presumed that you are). You were looking forward to seeing my reply and you shall not be disappointed. No bruised ego, no hurt feelings â¦..

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:42:02 GMT

Hello Hoa Thai!

I did not understand your question fully, but I'll try to answer based on my interpretation of what you have asked.

Firstly, I think you are confusing 'test match' with completely unrelated terms like 'semi-final match' or 'elimination match' etcetera. It's not a name given to special games in a tournament like 'the final match' etcetera.

Actually, the game of cricket is played in three forms that are officially recognized by the ICC (International Cricket Council) - Test Cricket, One-day Cricket and Twenty20 Cricket.

Test Cricket is the original form of cricket. One-day Cricket began in the early 1970s and Twenty20 is a modern day phenomenon that became popular in England in the early years of this decade and was officially recognized last year only.

A game of cricket played according to the rules and regulations of Test Cricket over a period of 5 days or fewer (depends on the match situation, but maximum 5 days) is called a test match. It's a gruelling format that is a real test for a player's mental and physical strength.

Coming to First Class Cricket, it's a term that includes a lot of things.

There are 10 full members of the ICC. Five Days matches between any two of those are called 'test matches'.

The ICC has 33 Associate Members and 58 Affiliate Members. Even if any two of these countries play a 5-day cricket match exactly as per the rules of Test Cricket with permission of the ICC, it's called a 'first class match', though they usually play 3 or 4 Days' matches only.

Domestic Five Days' matches organised by boards (that are recognized by the ICC) in their respective countries are also called 'first class matches'. Even Three Days' cricket matches (not an official form of cricket) are called 'first class matches'.

When any of the Full Members tours another Full Member, the team usually plays Three Days warm-up games with a few chosen domestic teams and those are also called 'first class matches'!

The ICC organises a tournament called 'The Intercontinental Cup' for the Associate Members. Those matches as also classified as 'first class'.

There may be more types of cricket matches that are classified as 'first class matches', but I can't recollect!

Must all national cricket teams participate in the Test matches before they can take part in the 'first-class cricket' tournament? Can they get a by?

Actually, as you must have noticed, 'test matches' are only for a privileged few! They are reserved for the Full Members of the ICC. The Associate Members always play 'first class cricket' only. It's the reverse of what you're thinking. The Associate Members have to play a lot of first class cricket before they are granted the 'Test' status! And no, there is no other way to get the coveted 'Test' status.

I hope I was able to explain. It's great to know that you are interested in cricket! If you have any more queries, you can always message me!

Here are a few wikipedia articles on cricket that will clarify things for you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket#One-day_cricket

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cricket_Council

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-class_cricket

Cheers!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Anonymous — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:42:56 GMT

Ashish,

You should be proud of yourself. You have a good command of English. Your writing is better than many native speakers. Smile!

Don't worry about Goodman's comments. It seems to me that you are a very courteous young man or girl (I can't tell from your name). I don't see an offensive or denfensive person in you. I see someone who aspires to mastering a language by being modest and receptive. You have some good qualities in you. Good luck!

Learner Myself

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:02:36 GMT

Hello Goodman!

Actually, I find your English quite fluent when you are in the defensive mood!

Thanks for the compliment! I am being defensive because I know my limitations in the English language. Though I have learnt English primarily through grammar books, magazines, newspapers, books etcetera, I am aware that I am not really good when it comes expressing my thoughs exactly the way I feel them in the written form of the language. And that is the reason why, as you rightly pointed out, I did not get the 'tone' right in my second post on the thread.

I know you are more experienced than I and if you think that I was being argumentative, then I have no option but to agree with you. I don't know what I did wrongly and though I tried hard, I could not figure out exactly what made the tone unfavourable. Please understand that I am not a native speaker and it's really not that easy for non-native speakers to get the right tone every time they use the language.

I can't really be called fluent if I cannot express myself the way I want to, can I? I guess that pretty much explains why I am being defensive.

I guess the message I was trying to bring to you was you need to learn to realize the tone of the statement is louder than the words you chose. You may not know it.

I realise that the tone of my statement wasn't exactly great, but how - I can't seem to understand! I'll try my best to learn how to get the tone right. And yes, you are right, I did not know how wrong my tone was.

And since I did not realise that my tone was not right, it was obvious that I thought you were reading too much into it!

Believe or not, I actually was working on your thread. Halfway through, I lost the motivation.

Surely, it wasn't that bad a piece of writing for you to lose the motivation to comment on it!

But is cricket really the 2nd most favorite sport? I seriously doubted.

I did not believe it either when I read it on wikipedia.com! Okay, I concede that it should have been - it's 'thought to be' the second most popular sport in the world after Football. A lot of it can be explained by the fact that it's the only sport that Indians (more than a bllion in population) care about! In fact, the nation is crazy about cricket!

Here's the wikipedia article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket

Well, I guess without my participating on your thread, the world still evolves and other would still answer your questions.

Well, I guess I have really turned you off! I really did not intend to annoy you or anything like that. I have already apolologized, and I apologize again. But I really do feel that you could have been a bit softer in the way you expressed your criticism of me and, believe me, it stung!

I see no point in harbouring bitterness. I would love to see your replies to my questions. Really, if you give me enough time and give yourself enough of my posts to base your judgement on, I am quite sure that you'll realise that I am not as bad as I seem to be! Let's bury the hatchet, shall we?

See you!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:54:48 GMT

Thank you, Mister Micawber! Now I understand why I shouldn't use 'school life'.Your inputs really helped a lot!

I know 'test match'... but it should not be capitalized.

I got the point! Thanks once again!

Just to make it clear, I mentioned that 'test match' wasn't wrong because I did not expect you to know about cricket considering that you live in Japan, a country where, as far as I know, cricket is not a popular sport. It's a pleasant surprise that you know about the game! I hope it didn't upset or annoy you. If it did, please accept my heartiest apologies.

Thanks!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Hoa Thai — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:39:56 GMT

Hi Ashish,

This is for my curiosity. Must all national cricket teams participate in the Test matches before they can take part in the 'first-class cricket' tournament? Can they get a by?

I my country, Vietnam, soccer is the most popular game. Teams have to compete all year around through various stages. At each stage, some teams do get a by if they rank among the top few. I, however, do not know if we officially name the matches between teams. Sometimes, we call a match by the name of the biggest sponsor. I like the name Test though - it is about competency instead of commercial orientation.

Re: Please edit this for me!

Goodman — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:07:08 GMT

Hi Ashish Tiwari,
Actually, I find your English quite fluent when you are in the defensive mood! You are quite right! "The US is not the entire world". But
is cricket really the 2nd most favorite sport? I seriously doubted.
I guess the message I was trying to bring to you was you need to learn to realize the tone of the statement is louder than the words you chose. You may not know it. You may call me "reading too much into it". Believe or not, I actually was working on your thread. Halfway through, I lost the motivation. Well, I guess without my participating on your thread, the world still evolves and other would still answer your questions. Good luck!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Ashish Tiwari — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:22:24 GMT

Hello Goodman!

I do not know what you found so very offending about the post. I am sorry if I sounded discourteous, but I did not intend to. I guess you thought that I was being argumentative when I asked what the problem was with 'school life'. All I wanted to know was that what could be the possible alternatives to express the same meaning so that I am not at a loss of words the next time I need to refer to my life at school. I was not trying to question his authority or anything, but simply to know more.

Perhaps you did not notice, but I am really very new to this website. So thanks for introducing me to some of the dos and don'ts of the website, but you could have been a bit less harsh and certainly a lot less sarcastic in offering the advice.

When the volunteers help the learners, we may give them our personal view of their writing. Some may interprete it differntly and corrected it.

I did not know that it is considered discourteous to ask for explanations and alternatives, but I do know now and I'll make it a point to not to do so in the future. I have visited other 'learning' websites where experts help volunteers and didn't notice anything like that there. But I guess 'different place, different rules'!

If you still like to continue receiving help, I suggest that you be less arugmentatively inquistive.

I would 'still' like to receive help for sure. Once again, I can't understand what made you think that I was being 'argumentatively inquisitive'.

Sometimes the terms you used are not mainstream English and so it's pointed out to you.

Okay, got the point! I did not think that anybody would read so much into that passing remark. Yes, that's what it was - a passing remark. Surely, it wouldn't hurt anybody's pride to know about a game? Anyway, if it did sound disrespectful, I apologize.

In all the sports we know in the US, there is no "test match" that I know of. Perhaps, qualifying match, semi-final, or Elimination match.

The US is not the world. Cricket is the second most popular sport in the world after Football and Test Matches is the oldest form of the many forms of the game!

Once again, I have tried not to sound argumentative, discourteous or anything of that sort in this post as well. But I am not a native speaker of the language and cannot know what shades of meaning my seemingly innocuous sentences carry! I apologize if do sound like any of those.

Thanks once again!

Re: Please edit this for me!

Mister Micawber — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:06:40 GMT

Hi Ashish.

All my school life,.. What's the problem?-- Many of my Japanese students try the same phrasing-- but it's not a natural phrase; we do not normally use 'my school/work/single/etc life' in English. Try 'While in school'.

By the way, the expression 'Test Match' is not wrong. It's one of the many forms of 'Cricket'.-- I know 'test match'... but it should not be capitalized.

Re: Please edit this for me!

Goodman — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:16:12 GMT

Hi Ashish Tiwari,
Mister Micawber already gave you his opinions but I thought I would offer you a couple advices just so that you understand the courtesy concept. When the volunteers help the learners,
we may give them our personal view of their writing. Some may interprete it differntly and corrected it. Sometimes the terms you used are not mainstream English and so it's pointed out to you.
If you still like to continue receiving help, I suggest that you be less arugmentatively inquistive. "In all the sports we know in the US, there is no "test match" that I know of. Perhaps, qualifying match, semi-final, or Elimination match.
<<<<By the way, the expression 'Test Match' is not wrong. It's one of the many forms of 'Cricket">>>>