ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: A question about commas

Akavall — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:47:01 GMT

Thanks for the explanation, Clive,

Clive
The first time in my life that I even encountered any suggestion that one might put a comma there was just a couple of years ago when I started reading this Forum.

The first time for me was only couple of months ago, when decided to learn more about grammar. I think I'll stay away from using serial comma in obvious cases.

Re: A question about commas

Clive — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:04:07 GMT

Hi,

'I bought apples, pears and oranges'

Yes, I doubt anybody would think that pears and oranges comprise apples, but are there any disadvantages to putting a comma before and? No, I can't think of any except that you are adding unnecessary clutter to the sentence. However, I would never put a comma there in this sentence.

In truth, I was taught never to use such a comma, so it looks odd to me. A comma represents a pause, and the word 'and' itself acts as a pause, ie the word 'and' slows the reader's mind and eye down when looking at the sentence. So if you put both a comma and the word 'and', it seems to me that you are using two consecutive pauses.

The first time in my life that I even encountered any suggestion that one might put a comma there was just a couple of years ago when I started reading this Forum. So, please don't get the idea that every English writer uses such commas.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: A question about commas

Akavall — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 02:59:53 GMT

Hi Clive,

'I bought apples, pears and oranges'

Yes, I doubt anybody would think that pears and oranges comprise apples, but are there any disadvantages to putting a comma before and?

Re: A question about commas

Creativeguru — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:47:44 GMT

Thanks a lot Clive and Grammar Geek

Re: A question about commas

Clive — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:57:45 GMT

Hi,

He was friends with two American Presidents Kennedy and Nixon, and a British Prime minister, Tony Blair

To be absolutely correct in grammar and in meaning, I would say it this way. This clearly means three people.

He was friends with American Presidents Kennedy and Nixon, and with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Here, I am using 'Presidents' and 'Prime Minister' as titles, not as nouns in apposition.

Clive

Re: A question about commas

Grammar Geek — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:09:08 GMT

You need to be more clear.

He was friends with two American presidents, Kennedy and Nixon, and with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Check your use of capitals, as well.

He was friends with the American President Kennedy and President Nixon, and with ...

Re: A question about commas

Creativeguru — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:28:27 GMT

No I didnt mean to say he was friends with five but indeed my sentence sounds like that because of improper punctuation marks

How is the following sentence

He was friends with two American Presidents Kennedy and Nixon, and a British Prime minister, Tony Blair

Now is it proper I want to say he is friends with three.

Re: A question about commas

Clive — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:16:59 GMT

Hi,

consider the folllowing

'He was friends with two American Presidents, Kennedy, Nixon, & a British Prime ministre Tony Bliar.

Is the above sentence structure is right? You need a little editting on the end part.

He was friends with two American Presidents, Kennedy, Nixon, and a British Prime minister, Tony Blair.

This is correct grammar, but it says that he was friends with five people. Is that what you mean to say?

The sentence also suggests that Kennedy and Nixon were not American Presidents, which sounds odds since there were in fact Presidents with these names.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: A question about commas

Creativeguru — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:34:19 GMT

Hi Clive I do agree with you but i need little clarification regarding the following

'He was friends with two American Presidents, Kennedy and Nixon'. Here, it's true that a comma after 'Kennedy' would completely change the meaning.

I do agree now consider the folllowing

'He was friends with two American Presidents, Kennedy, Nixon, & a British Prime ministre Tony Bliar.

Is the above sentence structure is right?

Re: A question about commas

Yoong Liat — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:00:19 GMT

Clive
Hi,
In 1995, the player won events such as Dormund, Linares, and Corus.

Do you think it would be better to take out the comma? From what I understand, the argument for using the comma after Linares is that it clarifies that Dortmund does not consist of Corus and Linares. No, removing the comma does not introduce that kind of confusion. It's just like saying I bought apples, pears and bananas.

Best wishes, Clive

I was taught that I bought apples, pears, and bananas is AmE.

and in BrE, the comma is not to be inserted. I have read in English usage books that this is so.

Has there been a change in AmE usage in regard to the use of a comma in such contexts?

Re: A question about commas

Clive — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:52:46 GMT

Hi again,

This is where I got the idea from:

A comma before the final and, or, or nor in a list of more than two things is called a serial comma or an Oxford comma: Yes. Search the Forum for 'Oxford comma', and you'll get lots of discussion.

We had milk, biscuits, and cream.
It is called the Oxford comma because the style guide of the Oxford University Press is one of its prominent advocates.
Although the Oxford comma is not always used, it should be applied to avoid ambiguity. Omitting the Oxford comma changes the meaning of a sentence, and unless the author is aware of the possible meaning the comma should be included rather than omitted.

I spoke to the boys, Sam and Tom. â The boys refers to Sam and Tom.
I spoke to the boys, Sam, and Tom. â The boys, Sam, and Tom are separate units; thus, four or more people were spoken to in all.
I spoke to x, y and z. This sentence is stating that y and z are what comprise x. I wouldn't say that it always means this. It depends on the 'content words' in the sentence. eg If I say 'I bought apples, pears and oranges', do you think that anyone is going to think that pears and oranges comprise apples? Compare that to a sentence like 'He was friends with two American Presidents, Kennedy and Nixon'. Here, it's true that a comma after 'Kennedy' would completely change the meaning.

I spoke to x, y, and z. This sentence is stating that x, y, and z were all spoken to and that they are different entities. " Similarly, consider 'I spoke to Tom, Dick and Harry'. This clearly identifies three people.

Your example was In 1995, the player won events such as Dormund, Linares, and Corus. Even without the comma, I would take this to refer to three separate events. I suggest that would be the normal interpretation. If I intended to convey to the reader the idea that Dormund consists of two parts called Linares and Corus, I wouldn't simply rely on 'no comma after Linares' to convey that idea. Such a construction, using three proper names, would be unusual.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: A question about commas

Akavall — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 05:33:16 GMT

Clive,

This is where I got the idea from:

A comma before the final and, or, or nor in a list of more than two things is called a serial comma or an Oxford comma:

We had milk, biscuits, and cream.
It is called the Oxford comma because the style guide of the Oxford University Press is one of its prominent advocates.
Although the Oxford comma is not always used, it should be applied to avoid ambiguity. Omitting the Oxford comma changes the meaning of a sentence, and unless the author is aware of the possible meaning the comma should be included rather than omitted.
- I spoke to the boys, Sam and Tom. â The boys refers to Sam and Tom.
- I spoke to the boys, Sam, and Tom. â The boys, Sam, and Tom are separate units; thus, four or more people were spoken to in all.
- I spoke to x, y and z. This sentence is stating that y and z are what comprise x.
- I spoke to x, y, and z. This sentence is stating that x, y, and z were all spoken to and that they are different entities. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(punctuation)

Are the examples in the two bolded lines different from mine? What am I missing?

Re: A question about commas

Clive — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 05:03:13 GMT

Hi,

In 1995, the player won events such as Dormund, Linares, and Corus.

Do you think it would be better to take out the comma? From what I understand, the argument for using the comma after Linares is that it clarifies that Dortmund does not consist of Corus and Linares. No, removing the comma does not introduce that kind of confusion. It's just like saying I bought apples, pears and bananas.

Best wishes, Clive

Re: A question about commas

Akavall — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:54:20 GMT

Thank you for the replies, guys.

Clive

Many people, including me , would also say the comma after Linares is unnecessary, or at least optional.

Do you think it would be better to take out the comma? From what I understand, the argument for using the comma after Linares is that it clarifies that Dortmund does not consist of Corus and Linares.

Re: A question about commas

Clive — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 01:40:59 GMT

Hi,

Many people, including me , would also say the comma after Linares is unnecessary, or at least optional.

Best wishes, Clive