ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: less/fewer than

Tanit — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:46:57 GMT

< more offtopic >

CalifJim
Out of curiosity -- my Italian is quite bad -- is that "cavato"?

It is "scolpito".
I don't think your Italian is bad at all.

< /offtopic>

Re: less/fewer than

CalifJim — Thu, 15 May 2008 23:24:43 GMT

{off topic}

Out of curiosity -- my Italian is quite bad -- is that "cavato"?

Re: less/fewer than

Tanit — Thu, 15 May 2008 21:18:18 GMT

Thanks, Alienvoord and CJ.
We (my coauthor and I) sent the article nearly two months ago, and hopefully it will be published at the beginning of next year. We wrote "less than ... " as everybody here suggested.
I must admit I was very confused, but now ... can I say it's carved in my mind? (this would be a literal translation form Italian )

Re: less/fewer than

CalifJim — Thu, 15 May 2008 21:09:39 GMT

Tanit
"Less than * hectares": 647 results in universities' websites, 473 in governments' websites
"Fewer than * hectares": 28 results in universities' websites, 16 in governments' websites

I would imitate the usage of the majority here, and for all cases of measurements. I don't think it's necessary to take an extremely conservative path for these even in formal writing. In fact, the use of "fewer" in these cases sounds a bit rough on my ear -- as if the writer were trying just a little too hard to be proper and only succeeded in looking foolish.

Re: less/fewer than

Alienvoord — Thu, 15 May 2008 20:51:51 GMT

less has been used with count nouns for 1000 years. The prescription against this usage has no foundation. Examples from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage.

Re: less/fewer than

Tanit — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:37:41 GMT

Thank you all. Your suggestions have been really helpful.

Re: less/fewer than

Yankee — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:44:24 GMT

Hi Tanit

Here is the usage note from the American Heritage Dictionary:

The traditional rule holds that fewer should be used for things that can be counted (fewer than four players), while less should be used with mass terms for things of measurable extent (less paper; less than a gallon of paint). However, less is used in some constructions where fewer would occur if the traditional rule were being followed. Less than can be used before a plural noun that denotes a measure of time, amount, or distance: less than three weeks; less than $400; less than 50 miles. Less is sometimes used with plural nouns in the expressions no less than (as in No less than 30 of his colleagues signed the letter) and or less (as in Give your reasons in 25 words or less).

The sort of usage highlighted above is widely accepted.

I'd say fewer than would tend to be used in such instances if you want to stress or focus on the individual "pieces" that make up the measurement (for whatever special reason).

Re: less/fewer than

Kooyeen — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:27:24 GMT

Hi Tanit,
I never break prescriptive rules, because they don't exist!

Tanit
Edited English still follows the basic pattern rigorously, however, except in...

...and there are some exceptions. But then they say:

Tanit
Even in these, Edited English prefers fewer, and for many conservatives, the use of less where fewer is expected remains a strong shibboleth.

So they say it's better to avoid considering those exceptions. I don't agree at all, for the simple reason that I doubt good writers would use fewer in "fewer than one hundred dollars", or "fewer than ten miles", but I might be wrong, you know, it's just my opinion.

Re: less/fewer than

Grammar Geek — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:23:43 GMT

Tanit, don't worry! Several months ago I came to a standstill because I instinctively "knew" that is should be less but felt like it was violating the countable rule. It was my friends here to provided a link to the same reference that reminded me that distance, area, and time could be thought of as one until (a journey of less than ten miles, etc.) So every once in a while, natives get flummoxed too!

Re: less/fewer than

Tanit — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:16:11 GMT

Hi Goodman,

Your post was not there when I posted yesterday, so let me thank you for replying.

As I wrote earlier, I know the general use of less/fewer.
What was bothering me was whether less or fewer should be used in the structure less/fewer + [number] + [unity of measurement => plural] in academic (written and formal) English.

Thanks again.

Re: less/fewer than

Tanit — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:06:07 GMT

Hi K.!

To learn that you can be prescriptive has been a great surprise! I thought you enjoyed learning rules only to come up with a clever way of breaking them!

Kooyeen
But as you know (hopefully you do know, lol), quantities followed by plural units of measurement are often considered as uncountable, taking account of the total amount and leaving aside the plurality of the units of measurement.

Yep, I know, but for some reasons I cannot explain "less than X hectares" didn't seem quite right to my ear.
I wanted to thank you for mentioning bartleby.com. I think I've probably found there the answer to my question (that is: "Which one should I use?"):

Kenneth G. Wilson
Standard English still usually requires this basic pattern: use less with mass nouns and fewer with plural count nouns, as in less employment, fewer jobs. But Common Englishâand even some Standardâincreasingly uses less with plurals, especially after than. Edited English still follows the basic pattern rigorously, however, except in a few idiomatic locutions, as in in ten words or less; in certain phrases involving money, such as less than a thousand dollars; and in some phrases involving plural measures of time and distance or other measures, also with than (less than four days, less than ten miles, less than five cups of coffee). Even in these, Edited English prefers fewer, and for many conservatives, the use of less where fewer is expected remains a strong shibboleth.

Re: less/fewer than

Goodman — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:01:05 GMT

Generally, we can use this rule:

Countable â use fewer

Non-countable â use less.

Johnâs car costs a lot less (money) to maintain than Paulâs

Johnâs car costs a few less dollars to maintain.

X gas station charges a few ( a few suggests countable) cents less per gallon than Yâs

X gas station charges less ( money) than Y gas station

There are times, less and fewer are interchangeably used:

Since I installed the new software, I have received fewer / less SPAMS.

Re: less/fewer than

Kooyeen — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:23:21 GMT

Hi Tanit,
prescriptivism is not for me, but I can be prescriptive on demand!

Yes, in theory it should be fewer, but only if you really want to refer to "hectares", which is plural and countable. But as you know (hopefully you do know, lol), quantities followed by plural units of measurement are often considered as uncountable, taking account of the total amount and leaving aside the plurality of the units of measurement. Now, the problem is... I can't give you a good example, because I still have trouble with this too! Ok, I'll try:

About ten liters of water is needed for that chemical reaction. (Let's hope it is fine, LOL)

Another thing is that those two words together (="less than") have become a kind of fixed idiom that is usually used even if it refers to plural countable nouns.
There were less than one hundred people at the meeting.
Using "fewer than" is prescriptively ok, but it doesn't sound great, so you will find "less than" instead, as a kind of idiomatic replacement, even in good writing.
I think I learned this from some style guide, maybe on bartleby.com, but I am not sure.

This is just my opinion though.

less/fewer than

Tanit — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:00:17 GMT

Hi,

I thought I knew the difference between less and fewer, but I'm now confused because I thought that "fewer" was the correct word here:

Less than 0.7 hectares / fewer than 0.7 hectares
Less than 2.5 hectares / fewer than 2.5 hectares

I did a search on universities' and governments' websites, because I'm interested in formal written English (it's for an article I'm writing), and here are the results:

"Less than * hectares": 647 results in universities' websites, 473 in governments' websites
"Fewer than * hectares": 28 results in universities' websites, 16 in governments' websites

Less outnumbers fewer by 23 to 1 and 29 to 1 respectively!
Which would you choose? (prescriptive answers are welcome! )

Many thanks!