ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: open conditional

CalifJim — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 06:44:54 GMT

I'm not sure that there is a universally accepted definition of open conditional.

Nevertheless, I've seen it used in opposition to the term hypothetical conditional.

A hypothetical conditional is either the so-called Type 2 conditional:

If it rained, we would need our umbrellas.

Or the so-called Type 3 conditional.

If it had rained, we would have needed our umbrellas.

Or certain mixed conditionals.

If they had seen the film on first aid last month, they would now be prepared to handle this emergency.

Anything else is an open conditional according to this system (including the Type 1 conditional):

If it rains, it makes a mess in the garden.

If we have calculated correctly, the answer is 569.

If it was raining that day, the wedding was sure to be spoiled.

If what Geoge said was true, Marilyn had almost certainly left town last night.

If the prisoner escaped, he did so with the help of a guard.

If it rains, we will cancel the outing. (Type 1.)

If you're sure he'll soon be here, I'll wait a little longer. (Type 1.)

Ambiguity is possible between the two types:

If he lost the key to the car, he would have his wife bring the copy from home. [habitual reading with would = used to -- open; possible-one-time-incident reading -- hypothetical]

(In this system, your example with did or did not is a hypothetical conditional.)

The line dividing the two major types may differ by author.

Re: open conditional

Yankee — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 02:56:22 GMT

If you want to use the words "open" and "closed" with conditional sentences, then I might explain those two words this way:

Type 1: very open -- the possibility of the condition being fulfilled is seen as real

Type 2: only slightly open -- the possibility of the condition being fulfilled is seen as unlikely, strictly theoretical or contrary to current fact

Type 3: closed -- since the condition is a reference is to a past activity, there is no possibility at all of the condition being fulfilled. It is completely impossible to change the past.

Just my two cents.

Re: open conditional

Anonymous — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:28:24 GMT

Thank you, Mr M.

I have seen the kind of structure like the one below with the 'did' or 'did not' in the 'if' clause as an example of the second conditional? Can it be the subjunctive too -- that is, a counterfactual or hypothetical? I think the subjunctive is the one that denotes both or either of countfactual and hypothetical situations? Am I correct?

I would do this for you if you did (or didn't) do this.

Here, in the thread named "Type 2 and type 3 of "If clause", does MrPedantic's explanation of no.1 ring the same to you (and your previous explanation)? I didn't pursue further with this with Marius in a thread that dealt the same general theme.

Hello CS

1. It would be nicer, if you did X.

2. It would have been nicer, if you had done X.

#1 is open: it relates to a course of action that the speaker thinks desirable, at any time.

#2 is closed: it relates to an imaginary course of action in the past, which the speaker thinks desirable, but which didn't in fact occur.

By the way, I don't think your tables work very well in our threads â they're a bit too big â so I've had to remove them. Sorry about that.

All the best,

MrP

What does he mean by 'open'?

Re: open conditional

Mister Micawber — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:38:52 GMT

.
In an open conditional (= 1st conditional), the fulfillment of the condition is seen as a realistic possibility. This is in contradistinction to a counterfactual.

open conditional

Anonymous — Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:14:05 GMT

Hi,

What is an open conditional? Is that another name for first conditional or what? Does that mean the element of hypothetical doesn't exist in an open conditional or can it accommodate both hypothetical and real?

But I see cases where the verb or auxiliary verb 'did' or 'did not' is used in an 'if' clause and many seem to consider them as being open, why is that?

I would do this if you did or did not do this.

Thank you.