ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Anonymous — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:05:36 GMT

Actually, the apostrophe shouldn't be placed there. It should merely be PSs - similar to the "1980s" not "1980's"
Also - the s's looks kinda weird...maybe it's meant to be like s' or something o__O; for e.g. it's meant to be "James' wallet", as opposed to "James's wallet" <--except American spelling often utilises this form

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:50:30 GMT

The transliteration mentioned above is only used for teaching the Chinese language. They are not used in real communications like newspaper, letters, books or anything written normally, except Children's book or textbooks for primary students. There are only several hundred sounds in Mandarin but there are tens of thousand of Chinese characters. That's why it is not possible to "Romanize" the Chinese language and replace the Chinese characters by the Roman transliteration.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:24:01 GMT

The Chinese language has many dialects. We all share the same set of characters but these characters are pronounced differently in different dialects. Same characters different pronunciations. We don't say the characters belong to any one particular dialect. They are just Chinese characters. You can't say Mandarin characters or Cantonese characters because these terms do not make sense. For example, the numbers one, two, three are written as one, two, and three horizontal strokes respectively in Chinese "ä¸ äº ä¸" (can you see these characters?) They are pronounced as yi1 er4 san1 in Mandarin and jat7 ji6 sam1 in Cantonese. These are not exact transliteration though. Chinese is a tonal language and the numbers are used to indicate the tone. Mandarin has four tones while Cantonese has nine (some say six depending on which method you use to indicate the tones). So, everyone can read the same Chinese book but they read them differently.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 08:02:07 GMT

Pter
Yes, I understand that. But this usage would be very rare and most likely not in shortform.

We don't use Mandarin to refer to the Chinese language. Mandarin is one spoken dialect of the Chinese language, albeit the official one and is taught all over the country. It refers to the spoken language, not the writing. The PinYin system commonly used for Mandarin is a way to transliterate the sound.

It refers to the spoken language, not the writing. (Could you please elaborate on this? I believe Mandarin is the official Chinese dialect, both written and spoken.)

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 01:08:14 GMT

Yes, I understand that. But this usage would be very rare and most likely not in shortform.

We don't use Mandarin to refer to the Chinese language. Mandarin is one spoken dialect of the Chinese language, albeit the official one and is taught all over the country. It refers to the spoken language, not the writing. The PinYin system commonly used for Mandarin is a way to transliterate the sound.

I suppose most languages are based on alphabetical systems. Chinese and only a handful are exceptions.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:48:02 GMT

Anyway, why we need a plural for PS? A postscript is a short remark. Although it is possible that the "short" remark is not that short and may have more than one paragraph, it is still one short remark. Two paragraphs don't make it two postscripts. I was told that an additional PS added after the original PS is PPS - Post-Postscript. (Post-postscript.)

The plural of 'postscript' is 'postscripts'. (Collin Cobuild English Dictionary for Advanced Learners)

If there is more than one letter, each with a postscript, then we have to say 'postscipts'.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:32:52 GMT

There are other languages with their own alphabet, but I don't know how many languages have alphabets. Perhaps another member can enlighten me. Mandarin has no alphabet.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:00:42 GMT

No one told me that before!!!

This must be a very common mistake made by Chinese speakers. Perhaps, because there is no such thing as a Chinese alphabet.

Please feel free to correct any mistakes I've made. I learn something new every time!

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:30:33 GMT

Hi Pter

Thanks. That's where I am confused. I thought the pronunciation need to match the spelling and therefore "es". Now I know that this is not necessary. I just checked my pronouncing dictionary and surprised to find that it lists all the pronunciations of the plurals of all the 26 alphabets. The plural of s is s's, and the pronunciation is /esiz/. I should have checked that dictionary earlier.

I hope you do not mind. It should be 26 letters. The alphabet consists of 26 letters.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:43:31 GMT

Yoong Liat
2a. There are two s's in the sentence. (The modern tendency is to add -s to pluralise a word. However, the -'s is still common. I would write s's because ss looks odd.)
2b. There are two PSs in the meeting. (I think either PSs or PS's is fine although I prefer the latter. )

Thanks again, Yoong Liat. I think this is not a matter of right or wrong, but just a matter of style. Many people still use the apostrophe. In fact, if the abbreviation has to be in lower case (I can't think of such a situation yet), I would also use the apostrophe. Therefore, I would write MPs, but mp's. I won't write mps because the s could be confused as part of the abbreviation.

Yoong Liat
In addition, how should they be pronounced? (Pronounce as in 1a and 1b)

Thanks. That's where I am confused. I thought the pronunciation need to match the spelling and therefore "es". Now I know that this is not necessary. I just checked my pronouncing dictionary and surprised to find that it lists all the pronunciations of the plurals of all the 26 alphabets. The plural of s is s's, and the pronunciation is /esiz/. I should have checked that dictionary earlier.

Yoong Liat
PS I have never seen P.SS. or p.ss. My copy of Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary does not have such an entry nor does any other dictionary I checked. (Maybe yours is not the latest edition.)

Seems that we are talking about different dictionaries instead of different versions. The name on the page you quoted does not have "Webster's". Anyway, why we need a plural for PS? A postscript is a short remark. Although it is possible that the "short" remark is not that short and may have more than one paragraph, it is still one short remark. Two paragraphs don't make it two postscripts. I was told that an additional PS added after the original PS is PPS - Post-Postscript.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:34:51 GMT

Pter
Sorry Yoong Liat, I think I didn't made it clear. The abbreviation of PS was made up arbitrarily. I didn't mean postscript. I could have used anything like BS, CS, DS, etc. in my question.

Back to my original question. What I would like to ask is whether I should use "s" or "es", i.e. the choice of

1a. There are two s'es in the sentence.
1b. There are two PSes in the meeting.

OR

2a. There are two s's in the sentence. (The modern tendency is to add -s to pluralise a word. However, the -'s is still common. I would write s's because ss looks odd.)

2b. There are two PSs in the meeting. (I think either PSs or PS's is fine although I prefer the latter. )

In addition, how should they be pronounced? (Pronounce as in 1a and 1b)

PS I have never seen P.SS. or p.ss. My copy of Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary does not have such an entry nor does any other dictionary I checked. (Maybe yours is not the latest edition.)

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:52:02 GMT

Sorry Yoong Liat, I think I didn't made it clear. The abbreviation of PS was made up arbitrarily. I didn't mean postscript. I could have used anything like BS, CS, DS, etc. in my question.

Regarding the apostrophe for abbreviations, let me quote some of the references I've read:

The Columbia Guide to Standard American English
http://www.bartleby.com/68/50/4650.html

usually add -s: two Xs, Ph.D.s, MIAs, 1990s, the â20s. Use an apostrophe only when you need it to prevent confusion: Mississippi has four iâs. He got Aâs in both courses.

The Economist Style Guide
http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=673905

Thus IOUs, MPs' salaries, SDRs, etc.

Times Online Style Guide
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/tools_and_services/specials/style_guide/article986718.ece

An apostrophe should be used to indicate the plural of single letters - p's and q's.
(Note that it doesn't say an apostrophe should be used for plurals of abbreviations.)

Guide to Grammar and Style by Jack Lynch
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/a.html

Apostrophes are sometimes used to make acronyms or other abbreviations plural (another matter of a local house style). My preference: don't use apostrophes to make abbreviations plural â not "They took their SAT's," but "They took their SATs." The only exception is when having no apostrophe might be confusing: "Two As" is ambiguous (it might be read as the word as); make it "Two A's."

Back to my original question. What I would like to ask is whether I should use "s" or "es", i.e. the choice of

1a. There are two s'es in the sentence.
1b. There are two PSes in the meeting.

OR

2a. There are two s's in the sentence.
2b. There are two PSs in the meeting.

In addition, how should they be pronounced?

PS I have never seen P.SS. or p.ss. My copy of Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary does not have such an entry nor does any other dictionary I checked.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:56:16 GMT

Pter
Hi Yoong Liat,

May I ask why you think it should be s's and PS's?

For the second one, style guides I read do not recommend using apostrophe for plurals of abbreviations although some people do use them.

What I've found surprises me. It seems that I was taught wrongly.

Encarta Dictionary

P.SS. or p.ss abbr Definition: postscripts

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This P.SS. postscripts.Also, p.ss.

Results

pss was found in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary at the entries listed below.Â· postscript Â· PS

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Pter — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:43:38 GMT

Hi Yoong Liat,

May I ask why you think it should be s's and PS's?

For the second one, style guides I read do not recommend using apostrophe for plurals of abbreviations although some people do use them.

Re: Plural of s = s'es?

Yoong Liat — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 04:45:31 GMT

There are two s'es in the sentence. ( It should be s's.)
There are two PSes in the meeting. ( It should be PS's.)