ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: one slash...

Pter — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:26:36 GMT

Hi Kooyeen,

I see what you mean. "Application", I suppose, comes from "application software". Although many people understand "application" as a piece of software, many non-technical savvy people may misunderstand it as something else if the context does not make it clear. To avoid the confusion, we can use "application software" but then we come better to the same situation: "an application software" is incorrect. We have to say "a piece of application software", "an application software package" or "an application software product", etc. This is what I found from a Longman website:

Give an example of an application software and an example of a system software. (2 marks)

This is grammatically wrong. But you see, it is not just me who think of "software" as "a piece of software". The next one is from about.com:

The Skype service comes with an application software, which is why many people think of Skype as being only a software, overlooking the great service behind.

There are many situtations that we need to tell people something is a software product. I got 76,000 hits from Google on "a software for", 42,600 hits for "a software from". Yes, these people are all wrong until one day a prominent writer use "a software" and a dictionary include this as an acceptable usage.

Back to your silverware example. I think you would call that a plate, a fork or a knife instead of "a piece of silverware" unless you don't recognise what that piece of silverware is. But this is not the case for "software".

Re: one slash...

Kooyeen — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:46:35 GMT

Pter
However, I just hate I have to say "a piece of software" or a "software package" every time when I talk about software.

That's what I meant, you don't have to! You won't hear that often, you'll hear other terms, the most common of which is probably "application". When you install an application... Check all the applications... A browser is an application. Install a firewall... another application. And so on. You never need "piece of software".

Re: one slash...

Grammar Geek — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:38:00 GMT

Actually, Kooyeen made a great point. You don't put "this silverware" on the table while holding a fork, you put "that piece of silverware." I hadn't thought of that before.

Re: one slash...

Pter — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 03:09:21 GMT

Thanks Kooyeen. I know it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG to use "software" as a countable noun. We can certainly find a lot of reasons why "software" should be uncountable. However, I just hate I have to say "a piece of software" or a "software package" every time when I talk about software. You don't say "a piece of stuff", "a stuff package" or anything similar. "A piece of silverware" is also rare if the number of hits from Google can be considered a useful reference.

Software is uncountable, but "software updates" are countable. It's insane. A software update is part of the original and contains fewer lines of code than the complete program. A part of an uncountable noun is countable!

I just wish that someone invent a word that is countable and means "a piece of software" or change the usage of software to "[ C ] and [ U ]"!

Another thing I'd wish to do, if I had any authority over the English language, is to abolish once and for all the whole notion of having countable and uncountable nouns!

EDIT:

I believe most words ending with -ware are most often used collectively. It is rather rare to refer to a single piece of whatever-ware. Software is an exception and I have already mentioned in my previous post that the usage of the word "software" has changed (or expanded) since its inception. It was originally a vague concept and using it as as an uncountable noun WAS certainly reasonable. However, in current usage, "software" is most often used to refer to concrete items, the individual software packages. Yet, "software packages" seems to either suggest a collection of multiple software items (e.g. Microsoft Office suite) or there is some sort of "packaging".

Re: one slash...

Kooyeen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:18:29 GMT

I think it's singular because it's uncountable, like the other words ending in -ware: dishware, silverware, etc. You don't say "a software", for the same reason you don't say "a stuff". A piece of software has always a name, and that's what is used instead. The most generic one is usually "application", or "program".

Re: one slash...

Grammar Geek — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:16:58 GMT

Pter
However, once a rule was set, it doesn't change even though the actual usage of the word evolves.

Not true - it just evolves more slowly than you would like. In 20 years or so, we can see if "a software" is in common use to refer to a software application.

Now, about that spelling... I'll go find the psychic.

Re: one slash...

Pter — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:19:24 GMT

Grammar Geek
Pter, if you can find "the one" who prescribes ANYTHING about a language, I'd like to talk to him or her about spelling first.

Ha, ha ha! I'm afraid you may need to talk to a psychic, then. I mean those people who claim to be able to communicate with the dead. I believe at least some of the current usages of English can be traced to particular authors who were already dead.

The word "software" is very recent. According to Merriam-Webster, the word appeared first in 1958. According to OED, it was a vague concept initially. For example, the programming language COBOL was referred to as software. So was "computer expertise" and even punched cards! I guess that was why it was uncountable. However, once a rule was set, it doesn't change even though the actual usage of the word evolves.

Re: one slash...

Grammar Geek — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 18:56:21 GMT

Pter
Personally, I don't agree with the one who prescribed that software is uncountable.

Pter, if you can find "the one" who prescribes ANYTHING about a language, I'd like to talk to him or her about spelling first.

Re: one slash...

Pter — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:19:28 GMT

Thanks for the great summary. I'm glad you confirmed what I understand about this field. Yes, it's time to close this thread.

Re: one slash...

New2grammar — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:43:02 GMT

I was fortunate to have a chance to work with a professor in the neuroscience field for a short period. According to him, even though neuroscientists are quite familiar with how individual neurons function, they are not able to understand how collectively the neurons work to give human intelligence, the capability to formulate thougths and some term I don't remember. Simply put, for example, the cells in the eyes are capable of sensing light, but it's the brain that puts the synaptic activities together and constructs images that are then recognized by the brain. The abstract capabilities of the brain are what puzzle neuroscientiests the most. I'm not a neuroscientiest, therefore, my understanding of the brain is very limited. So don't qoute my on any mistakes. In my opinion, we can't reproduce or mimic something we don't understand completely, therefore I guess it could be a reason there's limited progress in this area. But don't worry, there's still room for improvement. Instead of copying how the brain functions, we use a lot of advanced statistical and mathematical theories in the field as substitutes. In fact, they work very well in some applications like voice recognition, image recognition... well, you may argue that sometimes it detects the wrong word, etc but I would say, it's significant. I guess that's all I want to say and it's always nice to have an opportunity to talk about AI. But it's time to put an end to this topic, should we :)

Re: one slash...

Pter — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 08:56:56 GMT

Clive
'Software' is uncountable. If you want to talk about specific software, you'd commonly speak of 'a piece of software' or 'a software package'.

Thanks, Clive. I know the correct usage regarding software. Using software as a countable noun is a bad habit of mine. I won't make that mistake in formal writings. However, for informal occasions, I somehow "forget" or am reluctant to conform to the correct usage. Perhaps because the term for software in Chinese is "a piece of software" and is countable. Personally, I don't agree with the one who prescribed that software is uncountable. I think it is more reasonable to treat software as a countable noun. Well, well, I know I am "wrong". Sorry for ranting about this.

On the topic of artificial intelligence, I don't think I really know enough to discuss it with somebody who works in the field. From my layman's point of view, what I observed is that the breakthrough that we hoped for didn't happen. Although there have been a lot of researches and achievements in neuroscience and we now have a much better understanding on how the brain works than we do 20 years before, we still don't know enough about the human brain. Perhaps, just like what Roger Penrose said in his book Emperor's New Mind, AI as presently constructed, cannot in principle duplicate the workings of the human brain.

Re: one slash...

New2grammar — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:30:35 GMT

I'm not good with names but I don't think I've heard of him. I did some work related to neural networks which mimic how information is stored and how learning takes place in the human brain. It's an old but powerful theory. There are a lot more interesting theories. If you are interested there are a lot of subjects on machine learning, pattern recognition, etc out there. Depending on the application, some theories are more suitable to apply than the others. It's definitely an interesting field but let's focus on learning English as that's why we're here.

Re: one slash...

NL888 — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:16:01 GMT

Thank you all.

New2grammar, AI is one of the great fields of modern science. Have you ever heard of William H Calvin, the author of the book How Brains Think, in which he offered, early in 1996, a revolutionary idea of how to make an AI machine just like human brain? I just don't know whether or not he, with his colleagues, has actually made a breakthrough in this field.

Re: one slash...

Clive — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 03:49:55 GMT

Hi guys,

Here's a comment, since you are interested in software.

'Software' is uncountable. If you want to talk about specific software, you'd commonly speak of 'a piece of software' or 'a software package'.

Not all software ~~are~~ is so dumb.

one piece of software is better . . .

Best wishes, Clive

Re: one slash...

New2grammar — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:53:07 GMT

There has been some good progress but it's slower than we hope for.