ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: Two years is a long time

Pter — Fri, 02 May 2008 06:00:15 GMT

Goodman
Who is standing? or Who are standing? "Who" in most usage is singular. Who is that girl in the red dress?

Yes, that's what I found after doing a bit of research. "Who" is singular by default, unless there is something in the question that suggests otherwise (e.g. the complement is plural). The original question that I asked came from an English textbook for primary school children. The textbook has been used by a lot of schools in Singapore for many years and it was later adapted for the Hong Kong market. There is a picture in the book with some children in a park. The students are asked to write some questions about the picture. In the picture, there are two girls reading a book together. It sparked a debate whether the question should be "Who is reading?" or "Who are reading?". Many people said that because there were two girls, so it must be "Who are reading?". A minority, including me, said it should be "Who is reading?" because it is what a native speaker would say in such a situation. Many people just didn't believe me.

Re: Two years is a long time

Pter — Fri, 02 May 2008 05:48:27 GMT

Have you read a recent news that the number of Internet users in China has already exceeded that in the US? Given the international reach of the Internet, the number of hits in Google is not really a good indication of the use of English among native speakers. That's why this forum is a real treasure and I very much appreciate all your help and patience. Something you have taken for granted may be difficult to grasp for me, in particular if the usage seems to contradict what the grammar books say.

Re: Two years is a long time

CalifJim — Fri, 02 May 2008 05:19:54 GMT

number of hits in Google for "how many are too many" is even more than that for "how many is too many".

Surprising! I never would've guessed.

Re: Two years is a long time

Goodman — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:50:02 GMT

Who is standing? or Who are standing? "Who" in most usage is singular. Who is that girl in the red dress?

Re: Two years is a long time

Pter — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:18:10 GMT

Goodman
Sometimes the rules seem to be illusively bent, depending on the context.

Thanks,Goodman. "illusively bent" is an excellent description for these situations!

Goodman
How many cookies are in a package? âif you are hold a bag sealed package and you know it contains more than 1 cookie, then itâs correct to say âhow many are there â¦â.

But if your friend told you about a product and you are interested, you would say â

How many is in the package. i.e.

A: I booked a cruise vacation to the Caribbean yesterday. Itâs a very good package and I thought it would be fun if you can come along.

B: How much is it? And how many days is the cruise? In this context, I would say âisâ is considered correct in my opinion because âhow many daysâ is taken as a duration. However other experts may not agree.

Interesting! It reminds me of the very first question that I posted in this forum:

Who is standing? or Who are standing?

http://www.englishforums.com/English/StandingStanding/zgchl/post.htm

I joined this forum in the first place because I wanted to know the answer to that question. Many of my friends find it hard to believe that native speakers actually use "is" in such questions when there are obviously more than one people over there! Perhaps, having a name for these "illusively bent" situations may help me more easily convince them that the singular should be used. I would then be able to tell them to look for "whatever-term-that-does-not-yet-exist" in a grammar book.

CalifJim
Use How many is too many? Five is too many. Seven is too few. Ten men is enough. Twenty helpers is too many.

Thanks, Jim, for your good advice. That's what I'll do in future.

"How many men is too many men?" is a question asked in an episode of Sex in the City. I have also found that the number of hits in Google for "how many are too many" is even more than that for "how many is too many". But anyway, I'll use "How many is too many?" because it makes more sense to me to use the singular.

Re: Two years is a long time

CalifJim — Fri, 02 May 2008 03:20:06 GMT

Pter
How about the following:
1. How many is too many?
2. How many are too many?

Use How many is too many? Five is too many. Seven is too few. Ten men is enough. Twenty helpers is too many.

Re: Two years is a long time

Goodman — Thu, 01 May 2008 16:33:42 GMT

Pter,

We were taught early on in basic grammar that âmanyâ suggest more than 1 and therefore plural verb should be used. Yes, itâs true, but not always. Sometimes the rules seem to be illusively bent, depending on the context.

5 miles one way is too far to walk to school. â singular verb is correct.

How many cookies are in a package? âif you are hold a bag sealed package and you know it contains more than 1 cookie, then itâs correct to say âhow many are there â¦â.

But if your friend told you about a product and you are interested, you would say â

How many is in the package. i.e.

A: I booked a cruise vacation to the Caribbean yesterday. Itâs a very good package and I thought it would be fun if you can come along.

B: How much is it? And how many days is the cruise? In this context, I would say âisâ is considered correct in my opinion because âhow many daysâ is taken as a duration. However other experts may not agree.

There are plenty of examples where plural subjects are seemingly used with singular verb agreement. i.e.

Five dollars for a scoop of ice cream is too rich for my taste.

So, for your last 2 questions, they are both passible, depending on what the context is. That's how I see it.

Re: Two years is a long time

Pter — Thu, 01 May 2008 12:13:18 GMT

How about the following:

1. How many is too many?

2. How many are too many?

Re: Two years is a long time

Liveinjapan — Thu, 01 May 2008 07:31:23 GMT

Pter
if there is a grammatical term for this.

Hi, I think such an omitting itself can be a grammatical term. It's just my opinion, Pter.

Re: Two years is a long time

Pter — Thu, 01 May 2008 06:56:17 GMT

Hi YL, I am not saying they are uncountabe nouns. I said they are collective nouns.

Thanks GG. I understand the reason why the singular is used, but just don't know if there is a grammatical term for this.

Re: Two years is a long time

Goodman — Thu, 01 May 2008 06:49:31 GMT

<<>> but just because they can [be] used in the singular or plural, depending on context, doesn't make them uncountable nouns.

Re: Two years is a long time

Yoong Liat — Thu, 01 May 2008 05:19:54 GMT

Pter
I believe they are countable nouns only if we are talking about multiple audiences or cabinets, otherwise, they are called collective nouns that can be either plural or singluar depending on the context. No?

... they are called collective nouns that can be either plural or singluar depending on the context.

I agree, but just because they can used in the singular or plural depending on context doesn't make them uncountable nouns.

Re: Two years is a long time

Grammar Geek — Thu, 01 May 2008 02:33:48 GMT

The period of two years is long enough, or too long. You use the singular to refer to a "chunk" of something, whether it's time, distance, etc.

A group that consists of four men is more than enough manpower.

The parts in italics are understood to be what is really the unstated subject.

Re: Two years is a long time

Pter — Thu, 01 May 2008 02:18:51 GMT

I believe they are countable nouns only if we are talking about multiple audiences or cabinets, otherwise, they are called collective nouns that can be either plural or singluar depending on the context. No?

My question is I have never seen anybody calling "two years" or "four men" collective nouns.

Re: Two years is a long time

Yoong Liat — Thu, 01 May 2008 01:43:08 GMT

Hi Pter

Audience and cabinet are countable nouns.