ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Pter — Thu, 08 May 2008 23:53:09 GMT

Sorry to have confused all of you. My statement

"I thought *only* simple present was correct, but I thought wrong. I now know that both present tense and past tense are possible"

was only referring to the sample sentence given by Jim

(a) "My professor said that spiders are (were also possible) insects!" <-- reported speech

not the original sentence

(b) "I thought a spider was an insect" <-- not reported speech

My thoughts in my last post were presented in two paragraphs, the first one was about (b) and the second one was about (a).

Regarding the "universal falsehood", yes, I knew you were talking about just what the speaker believed, not necessarily the reality. You used this phrase just because I had been using "universal truths" to describe something that was in fact believed to be false.

Now I think I understand all of what you explained including Barbara's second post, but I am not sure you understand what I said. Thanks again.

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

CalifJim — Thu, 08 May 2008 21:30:44 GMT

Pter
And universal falsehood. What a phrase! This is important because we are not talking about something that is always true. As a result, we can only use the past tense in sentences starting with "I thought it was". The "was" is not the result of backshifting. It is used instead to indicate that the believe was hold true in the past but is now found to be false.

My apologies for introducing a joke! The "universal falsehood" reference is a complete joke! It doesn't matter whether what is reported is universally true or unversally false. What's important is that in the speaker's mind it is universally (or eternally, if you wish) true. In that way, in the right context, you can even have the reported speech: The scientist said that the earth is flat.

Consequently, the "was" truly IS the result of backshifting after "thought". It has nothing to do with beliefs considered true in the past but false in the present. You can banish all such logic from your mind. You came to believe some of these things because I put you off the track with my joke.

I don't know which sample sentences you are referring to, but after thought, knew, hoped, believed, and felt, you always need a past tense.

____

I didn't notice that it was not reported speech. (natural, normal)

I didn't notice that it's not reported speech. (also possible, less used)

You may find that each main clause verb has its own idiosyncracies with regard to backshifting. notice acts a little like a reporting verb. What you noticed may still be quite noticeable to your listener, and you may want to emphasize this fact. Nevertheless, keep this is mind: Backshifting is never wrong.

____

OK. I went back and found these. I think these are the samples you were referring to. The first choices shown are the ones that came to my mind first. It's not really more complicated than that. The second choice is also perfectly grammatical except as noted in the second sentence, where backshifting is required.

My professor said that spiders are (were also possible) insects! I didn't think they were (are not possible). I think he is (was also possible) wrong.

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

New2grammar — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:26:08 GMT

One small thing to add. The reported speech idea was brought into this thread by me and it confused everyone here. My bad. But when I included the thread for reference, I didn't suggest this topic was reported speech. I just wanted to point out that general truths can be said in the past tense. And that's why I said, it was be less related when I made the point. Sorry if you were confused by my statement.

I don't know, to me"I thought" comes very natural because I use it every day :) Lucky me

(Edit: actually, the reason it comes naturally to me is that when I say I thought I pictured a point in the past and
whatever I'm going to say next has to be in the past tense because it is a thought in the past, may or may not be real now! if you use the
present tense, it contradicts with I thought!!! It should be "I think" (what you're currently thinking )

I hope you understand my poor explanation. I've tried my best.
Another example,
I was so drunk, I thought my father was a women for a moment. (of course my father isn't a woman)
)

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Grammar Geek — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:25:07 GMT

If you'll note the time of post, Jim and I posted a minute apart, clearly writing our posts at the same time.

I thought *only* simple present is (oops, should be was) correct, but I thought wrong. I now know that both present tense and past tense are possible

NO! "I thought..." REQUIRES past. Present tense is NOT possible!

It doesn't have to turn out to be false.It can turn out that what you thought came true.

A: You're so smart to have brought your umbrella. Can I share it?
B: Of course you can. Even though the forecast didn't call for it, I thought it might rain. I'm sure glad I brought it!

A: Why didn't you want to date me in high school?
B: Back when we were in high school, I thought you were a jerk. Now I KNOW you are a jerk. Go away.

You avoid the confusion by always using the past after "I thought," (unless it's an internal dialogue as Jim suggests above, which is NOT part of typical narrative writing).

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Pter — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:14:43 GMT

I thought *only* simple present is (oops, should be was) correct, but I thought wrong. I now know that both present tense and past tense are possible. Sorry for the confusion.

I always have problems on this. How to avoid this confusion?

When I say "I thought", does it mean what "I thought" has to be false?

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

New2grammar — Thu, 08 May 2008 18:08:20 GMT

"I thought *only* simple present is correct."

Either I don't understand this topic or you're still digesting the material :)

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Pter — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:53:37 GMT

Thank you very much indeed, Jim. That's a great explanation. You cleared all my doubts. Forgive me for thinking out loud as I hope you can correct me if I am still making any mistakes.

Firstly, I didn't notice that it was (can only use "was", "is" not possible?) not reported speech! And universal falsehood. What a phrase! This is important because we are not talking about something that is always true. As a result, we can only use the past tense in sentences starting with "I thought it was". The "was" is not the result of backshifting. It is used instead to indicate that the believe was hold true in the past but is now found to be false.

Secondly, both present tense and past tense are possible in reported speech when talking about universal truths or things that still hold true at the present moment. This has been confusing me for a long time because I was taught to use the simple present in such cases and I thought *only* simple present is correct. It has been troubling me because sometimes I saw past tense being used and I always wondered why.

While I was waiting eagerly for your reply, I opened Randolph Quirk's A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, which I recently bought from Amazon. It doesn't mention the first point (or I just couldn't find it), but on the second point, it totally agrees with you!

You are really a great teacher!

Now, one last question. Please forgive my insatiable desire to get to every details. While both present tense and past tense are acceptable for the sample sentences you used, which of them sounds more natural? Are the ones inside the brackets less natural / common?

EDIT: I didn't see Barbara's post when I replied. Thank you very much Barbara. It's obvious that you also didn't see Jim's post when you replied. I am so glad to also get the confirmation from you. Once again, I can take your answer to the bank! I also want to thank Goodman, N2G and Marius for all your insights you have given me!

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Grammar Geek — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:14:06 GMT

You are mixing up two different things.

In reported speech, we tend to backshift, but may leave it in the present if we want to emphasize the "eternal truth" aspect. (This was already stated.)

This is not the same thing as saying "I thought ..." Following "I thought..." you need the past tense! Do not use the present, even for eternal truths, or you will sound very odd.

A: I thought the Earth was round.

B: It IS round!

B: Ah! I thought so! I thought it was round!

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

CalifJim — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:13:26 GMT

Should I use "is" or "was"?

I thought a spider is/was an insect, but it is in fact an arachnid.

Use "was". This is not reported speech! (And the first part is not a universal truth anyway; it's a universal falsehood!) This is one of the most typical patterns in the English language: I thought it was ..., but (actually) it is ...

In the sentence in blue, "is" is completely and totally impossible in normal idiomatic speech -- except:

I thought (to myself) [pause] "A spider is an insect".

Compare. The first sentence below has indirect speech, but the others don't. The last sentence has a main clause in the present, thus allowing either tense in the subordinate clause.

My professor said that spiders are (were also possible) insects! I didn't think they were (are not possible). I think he is (was also possible) wrong.

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

New2grammar — Thu, 08 May 2008 17:03:37 GMT

I agree with you that even experts make mistakes. A lot of theories still hold because no one has proven them wrong so far (or at least, they are still mostly useful though inaccurate under certain circumstances) but doesn't mean they are correct.In fact most things are approximations, a term very common in research communities (or in layman's term, there's always a gray area). To me, an expert is someone who is better in a field than an average person but as I said, it doesn't mean they will make no mistakes and sometimes,they make the most silly ones. :)

My English is not particularly good and sometimes my thoughts when they are put in words become distorted and I apologize for any offensive remarks.

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Goodman — Thu, 08 May 2008 16:35:17 GMT

New2grammar

As you can see an expert has just disagreed with me

Hi New2Grammar,

I hope I am not that person you are referring to as expert. Before I get in further trouble with the real

experts, I will make this brief comment. Event the experts can be wrong for a long time before realizing

what believed to be the true or correct answer was actually incorrect. Well, scientists thought Pluto was

a planet. Now what do you make of that?

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Marius Hancu — Thu, 08 May 2008 11:37:31 GMT

If you really want to sound English, use the past. Use the present only if you really want to emphasize the fact is still being valid.

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

New2grammar — Thu, 08 May 2008 08:09:41 GMT

I spent half an hour looking for the reported speech usage I told you about and just
when I almost gave up I came across this thread (not the one I've learned from but shoud
give you some idea)
http://www.englishforums.com/English/DidntEarthDidntEarth/vmgvj/post.htm

hope this helps

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Pter — Thu, 08 May 2008 07:38:38 GMT

New2grammar
(Edit: This is probably less related and I believe you already know it. In reported speech, you can say facts in the past tense. My teachertold me that the sun was a star.)

No, I didn't know that. We are all here to learn and I don't think my English is much better than yours. In this case, you certainly know better than me. I just googled for "that the sun was a star" / "that the sun is a star" and found that both have similar number of hits.

Re: I thought a spider is/was an insect

Ant_222 — Thu, 08 May 2008 07:19:52 GMT

What if there're two alternative facts pretending to a general truth?

I thought the aether didn't exist
I belived the aether existed