ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: need to back-shift?

Ant_222 — Sun, 11 May 2008 18:24:06 GMT

Fully agree with you, Pter!

Re: need to back-shift?

Pter — Sun, 11 May 2008 12:55:59 GMT

Hi Ant_222,

I think it may be futile to find out why. Sometimes, language is just the way it is. A language evolves and the reasons why it is now used this way are long forgotten. We can only guess, just like a detective arriving at a crime scene and try to find out what happened in the past. Some theories are better than the others and very often we just cannot be sure which one was what exactly happened. If your theory helps you and others remember the rule, that would be a helpful theory (not necessarily true though). For the time being, I would just say it 100 times after GG. After "I thought," do NOT use the present tense. That's enough for me.

Re: need to back-shift?

Ant_222 — Sun, 11 May 2008 10:22:05 GMT

Yankee
Â
I think another way "I thought" is used is to refer to something that the speaker once believed to be true, but now believes is or might be counterfactual.

But sometimes happens this: The Greeks knew the Earth was round ;)

Re: need to back-shift?

Yankee — Sun, 11 May 2008 01:28:48 GMT

OK, I see.

I think another way "I thought" is used is to refer to something that the speaker once believed to be true, but now believes is or might be counterfactual.

Re: need to back-shift?

Ant_222 — Sat, 10 May 2008 22:12:17 GMT

Amy:
Â«Ant, I think you need to reread GG's post.
After "I thought," do NOT use the simple present tense.Â»

I have read this commandment (sic!) about a million times in about a hundread threads, and all that in the past two or three days. In my previous post I didn't call it in question. Rather, I tried to devise a logical explanation for it. (skip the mess below)

1. A thought is something with a finite lifespan. For example, if I am no longer thinking my cat is coward, this thought has disappeared into non-existance.

2. Therefore, by saying "I thought..." I am referring to a past thought of mine and may not use Present Simple for it would contradict with the thought's being "dead".

3. However, in reported speech in focus is not a thought but only a manifestation of a thought. In a way, such a manifestatin is eternal and "lives" as the information of it's having been utterd exists (on any type of medium, from the brain to the book). This makes the act of speech less connected to its parental thought. For example, a thought may have a lot of manifestatins issued at different times.

4. "He said the Earth is round" â these words refer to a so called general truth, which is nothing else than a long-existing thought supported/shared by many people. So, why not refer to a past manifestaion of a present thought with a present tense?

5. "He thought the Earth was round". He had this though. Such was his thought. But know he is long dead and so are his thoughts, so how dare we to use a present tense to tell about things long gone?

Re: need to back-shift?

Yankee — Sat, 10 May 2008 17:03:23 GMT

Ant, I think you need to reread GG's post.

After "I thought," do NOT use the simple present tense.

However, you could use the simple present tense in a direct quote:

"The spider is an insect," I thought (to myself).

"He is married," I thought (to myself).

Re: need to back-shift?

New2grammar — Sat, 10 May 2008 17:02:56 GMT

Ant, Nothing really. It's just that this is the third time in just several days some of us are discussing this topic

I guess it's a commonly faced problem.

Re: need to back-shift?

Ant_222 — Sat, 10 May 2008 16:39:02 GMT

What.?.

Re: need to back-shift?

Pter — Sat, 10 May 2008 16:05:22 GMT

Again!

Re: need to back-shift?

Ant_222 — Sat, 10 May 2008 08:56:25 GMT

Â«I feel for those two examples, since they are not concern with someone's feelings, but pertain to factual scenarioes like being married and a candy being on sale yesterday and today, the need to back-shift isn't there for both of those situationsÂ»

I don't think it's too deep. It's OK.

Try contemplating the difference between reported speech, reported thinking (I thought, he thought) and reported knowing (I knew, they knew).

What has been said has been said. A spoken statement is only the expression of thinking/klnowing, which exist irregardless of whether they have been expressed in words or not. And it is this independence that allows us to avoid tense-shifting sometimes!

With reported thinking we refer to the root (the Thought), rather than an oral/written manifsetation of it. The thought is what is reported and a thought's lifespan is finite, so by saying: "I thought the spider is an insect" you force a thought to be timeless (or eternal) which is unnatural and sounds unnatural. A fact may be timeless (if it is a general truth), but one's thought thereabout may not!

Re: need to back-shift?

New2grammar — Sat, 10 May 2008 06:45:29 GMT

Can I expess my frustration as well?

NO! Use the PAST TENSE! Present tense is WRONG!!

wow... I feel much better now. Saves me a trip to the shrink

I recently realized I do make this mistake unconciously...no no subconciously is the right wrod.

Re: need to back-shift?

CalifJim — Sat, 10 May 2008 06:36:20 GMT

Re: need to back-shift?

Anonymous — Sat, 10 May 2008 05:36:48 GMT

Thank you, everyone.

After all those resounding responses, it would be hard for anyone to go on using a past (whoops, I might have started it again -- that was a slip) present tense after the phrase 'I thought'.

Got cha! Loud and clear. Thank you. Those are the kind of answers I would like get most of the times.

Re: need to back-shift?

CalifJim — Sat, 10 May 2008 04:51:02 GMT

Anonymous
I didn't know you are married.

Wrong!

Anonymous
I didn't know you were married.

Right!

Anonymous
I thought this candy is on sale.

Wrong!

Anonymous
I thought this candy was on sale.

Right!

Anonymous
I thought this car is the best one out there.

I thought buying a house is the best form of investment.

I thought John is the best-looking dude in the world.

I thougt Mr. Lee (who is dead) is someone we could consider as a role-model.

Four sentences that are completely wrong!

Anonymous
I feel for those two examples, since they are not concern with someone's feelings, but pertain to factual scenarioes like being married and a candy being on sale yesterday and today, the need to back-shift isn't there for both of those situations

You are digging too deep. It's the thinking part that shows the subjectivity, not what is thought about.

After "I thought" do NOT use the present tense! See the posts that GG mentioned. And do NOT use present tense after "I thought".

P.S. - After "I thought", do NOT use the present tense.

Re: need to back-shift?

Grammar Geek — Sat, 10 May 2008 02:40:02 GMT

Please see this: I thought a spider is/was an insect

With "I thought" do NOT use the present tense. Do NOT use the present tense. Do NOT use the present tense.

Say it with me. After "I thought," do NOT use the present tense.