ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Sat, 17 May 2008 05:47:05 GMT

ï¼ï¼What I mean is ---

P: He enjoyed listening to the music.

In P, the whole sentence (He enjoyed listening to the music.) clearly expresses a past occurrence / fact.

It's because the sentence has the Subject and Tense.

But "listening to the music" expresses a past action, I think, because it has no Subject, or Tense (no infornmation for time and place).

So I think whether "to do" / "---ing" / "that clause" is an action or occurrence doesn't depend on their time (past / present / future).

What I want to know most is whether we should regard as action or occurrence what we express both by using "---ing" and by that clauseï¼ï¼such as X and Y.

X: I remember seeing her in that shop the other day.

Y: I remember that I saw her in that shop the other day.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Grammar Geek — Fri, 16 May 2008 20:28:25 GMT

I'm afraid you've lost me again.

I understood what you meant about the difference between an actual occurence and a possible action when talking about thing that have not yet taken place (I expect to, I expect that). But I don't see how they are anything other than occurrences of actual fact when they are in the past.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Fri, 16 May 2008 17:11:07 GMT

-- Of course I mean PAST occurrence of fact.

ï¼You mean both are past occurrences of fact, but the second is more action-like, don't you?

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Grammar Geek — Fri, 16 May 2008 12:53:19 GMT

You mean PAST occurrence of fact, right?

They both expess something that actually happened, and the difference in meaning is very slight, if any. The first emphasizes the action of seeing her, the second gives perhaps more emphasis to the "where" and "when" it happened.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Fri, 16 May 2008 07:07:25 GMT

---Hi, Calif Jim. I agree with your suggestion that the question above mentioned is too advanced and cerebral, so I'll introduce my idea in so limited a way.Thank you very much.

By the way, I'd like you to answer my very last question if you likeï¼ï¼ï¼concerning the following 2 sentences.

X: I remember seeing her in that shop the other day.

Y: I remember that I saw her in that shop the other day.

Of course "that I saw her in that shop the other day" means a future occurrence or fact.
How about "seeing her in that shop the other day"? Also a future occurrence or fact?
Or else (Action)? I think both are expressions of Occurrence or Fact.
What do you think?

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

CalifJim — Wed, 14 May 2008 16:38:44 GMT

B. sounds more commanding to me.

I expect to see you tomorrow, so you had better show up on time.

I expect to see you tomorrow, so you had better be there when I arrive.

___

C. sounds more like a supposition, a guess.

I expect that I will see you tomorrow, given that we both have plans to be at the supermarket around 2 pm.

But if it doesn't work out like that, it's no big deal.

_____

So I believe that B is more action-like and C is more occurrence-like, as you suggest.

In B, 'see' takes on the meaning of 'meet'. In C, 'see' appears to keep its literal meaning of 'perceive with the eyes'.

Frankly you've got me in analysis paralysis with your question, and I can't imagine how the students must feel!

The exercise strikes me as too advanced and cerebral to develop any real 'feel' for the language. (But I could be wrong.)

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:46:17 GMT

--Thank you for your suggestion. I"ll follow it.

By the way, I need your comment, if you like, about my opinion as to whether "to see you tomorrow" is an expression of Action or Event (I should have written "event" , instead of "occurrence") in Sentence B.
I think both explanations (a future action and a planned event) are possible. What do you think?

B: I expect to see you tomorrow.

C: I expect that I will see you tomorrow.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 May 2008 12:37:48 GMT

I see where you're going, but is that really the easiest way for your students to understand?

Yes, what follows a "that" would be something that happened (or will happen).

It's a miracle that he fell down the steps and doesn't have so much as a bruise. - He DID fall down the stairs.

It's a miracle to see a baby being born. - An action that may or may not ever occurr. (So they say - personally, I think it's a messy business)

So if they are writing about a real past or planned event, then they can use "that."

If they are writing about the activity in general or in thery, then they can use the infinitive.

I would suggest you find passages using this form rather than trying to teach a formula.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Wed, 14 May 2008 08:22:22 GMT

ï¼ï¼Hi, Grammar Greek. I'm a non-native speaker of English teaching English composition to non-native students. Often we must teach English structures grammatically.

What I want to know now is in what cases we should use 'that clause" and "to do".

I must teach my students as simply as possible, so I'm trying to work out a formula, on which we can find which to use between 'that clause" or "to do".

My idea is "to do" expresses Acton and "that clause" expresses Fact or Occurrence".

For example, in D "to play on that street" expresses Action, I think.

D: "It's dangerous to play on that street"

In E "that I succeeded in the test" expresses Fact or Occurrence, I think.

E: "It's fortunate that I succeeded in the test."

But I'm not sure about B / C.

B: I expect to see you tomorrow.

C: I expect that I will see you tomorrow.

A expresses either a desire/wish or a command as you point out.

In my idea a desire/wish or a command is a kind of action, if we divide into 2 factors (Action / Fact or Occurrence) all kinds of things relating to human life.
C expresses a prediction as you say. But strictly, I think "expect --" is a kind of action --- an action of predicting, and "that I will see you tomorrow" expresses a future occurrence or a possible fact.

What I want to know most is whether B is an expression of Action or that of Occurrence / Fact.

Maybe either will do, I think. I'd be glad if you give me some advice or comment.

Or is my idea or attempt awkward?

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Grammar Geek — Mon, 12 May 2008 12:49:32 GMT

A: I want to see you tomorrow.

B: I expect to see you tomorrow.

C: I expect that I will see you tomorrow.

I don't really understand your terminology either.

A expresses either a desire/wish or a command. If I'm away on a business trip and am talking to my husband, I may say A as a wish (but I know I can't). On the other hand, if I'm a boss and my employee has called out sick and I think he's lying, I can say A as a command.

B is more likely to be a command, although it could also be a statement of prediction.

C is a prediction, not a command.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Ant_222 — Mon, 12 May 2008 11:33:38 GMT

Hello.

So an occurence is an instance of an action â that's your terminology? I have to understand what you mean by these terms to help you.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2008 07:29:11 GMT

ï¼ï¼Hi, Ant_222. I'm studying about actions and occurrences in English expressions.

For example, "to play on that street" in the sentence: "It's dangerous to play on that street" is an expression of action, while "that I succeeded in the test" in the sentence: "It's fortunate that I succeeded in the test" is that of occurrence or fact.

So I think generally "to do" expresses Action, while "that S V ---" expresses Occurrence or Fact.

But in some cases, in order to express the same situation, both "to do" and "that S V ---"are used, as in sample B and sample C.

"That I will see you tomorrow" in C sounds to me like an expression of action, but at the same time it also sounds like that of occurrence (future possible occurrence).

Are you sure "that I will see you tomorrow" in sample C expresses only Action?

Another question is: Are the following sentences both expressions of facts or occurrences? Or of action?

D: I remember visiting New York last summer.

E: I remember that I visited New York last summer.

Re: the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Ant_222 — Sun, 11 May 2008 18:45:31 GMT

"To see you tomorrow" and "I will see you tomorrow" both denote a future action, and it is the verbs "want" and "expect" that modify them so that they become a desire (in the case of "want") and an expectation(in B and C).

B and C are equivalent in meaning, but B sounds better.

the expression of action or that of occurrence?

Anonymous — Sun, 11 May 2008 15:29:56 GMT

I'd appreciate it if someone would answer my question concerning A, B and C. Thanks in advance.

A: I want to see you tomorrow.

B: I expect to see you tomorrow.

C: I expect that I will see you tomorrow.

I think "to see you tomorrow" in A and B means a future action, and "that I will see you tomorrow" means a future possible occurrence.

But B and C are used in the same situation. So should I say "to see you tomorrow" also means a future possible occurrence or a future action as in A?