ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: compensation

Old Man Gordon — Fri, 16 May 2008 22:39:31 GMT

Almost any post which mentions Mr. Russell should be put in the controversial section. If this cold be put into a single cohesive paragraph, there might be something to discuss. Also, if Mr. Russell had any experience with successful parenting, he might have different opinions.

Re: compensation

Taka — Wed, 14 May 2008 13:59:39 GMT

English text not found? Hmm...strange. It appears right next to the Japanese text on my screen.

Here is what I find in that page:

But to return to the problems with which this book is concerned, the full joy of parenthood in the modern world is only to be obtained by those who can deeply feel this attitude of respect towards the child of which I have been speaking. For to them there will be noÂ irksome restraint uponÂ their love of power, and no need to dread the bitter disillusionment whichÂ despoticÂ parents experience when their children acquire freedom. And to the parent who has this attitude there is more joy in parenthood than ever was possible toÂ the despotÂ in thehey-dayÂ of parental power. For the love that has beenÂ purgedÂ byÂ gentlenessÂ ofÂ all tendency towards tyranny can give a joy more exquisite, more tender, more capable of transmuting the base metal of daily life into the pure gold of mystic ecstasy, than any emotion that is possible to the man still fighting and struggling to maintain hisascendancyÂ in this slippery world.

While I attach a very high value to the parental emotion, I do not draw the inference, which is too commonly drawn, that mothers shouldÂ doÂ as much as possible themselvesÂ forÂ their children. There is a convention on this subject which was all very well in the days when nothing was known about the care of children except the unscientificÂ odds and endsÂ that old women handed on to younger ones. Nowadays there is a great deal in the care of children which is best done by those who have made a special study of someÂ departmentÂ of this subject. In relation to that part of their education which isÂ calledÂ 'education'Â thisÂ is recognised. A mother is not expected to teach her son theÂ calculus, however much she may love him. So far as the acquisition of book-learning is concerned, it is recognised that children can acquire it better from those who have it than from a mother who does not have it. But in regard to many other departments in the care of childrenÂ this is not recognjsed, because the experience required is not yet recognised. Undoubtedly certain things are better done by the mother, but as the child gets older, there will be an increasing number of things better done by someone else. If this were generally recognised, mothers would be saved a great deal of labour which is irksome to them, because it is notÂ thatÂ in which they have professional competence. A woman who has acquired any kind of professional skill ought, both for her own sake and for that of the community, to beÂ free to continue toÂ exercise this skill in spite of motherhood. She may be unable to do so during the later months of pregmancy and during lactation, but a child over nine months old ought not to form an insuperable barrier to its mother's professional activities. Whenever societyÂ demands ofÂ a mother sacrifices to her child which go beyond reason, the mother, if she is not unusually saintly, will expect from her child compensations exceeding those she has a right to expect. The mother who is conventionally called self-sacrificing is, in a great majority of cases, exceptionally selfish towards her children, for, importantÂ asÂ parenthood is an element in life, it is not satisfying if it is treated as the whole of life, and the unsatisfied parent is likely to be an emotionallyÂ graspingÂ parent.Â ItÂ is important, therefore, quiteÂ as muchÂ in the interests of the childrenÂ asÂ in those of the mother,Â thatÂ motherhood should not cut her off from all other interests andÂ pursuits. If she has a realÂ vocationfor the care of children and that amount of knowledge which will enable her to care adequately for her own children, her skill ought to be more widely used, and she ought to be engaged professionally in the care of some group of children which may be expected to include her own.Â It is rightÂ that parents, provided they fulfil the minimum requirements insisted upon by the State, should have a say as to how their children are cared for and by whom, so long as they do not go outside the ranks of qualified persons. But there should be noÂ conventionÂ demanding that every mother should do herself what some other woman can do better. Mothers who feel baffled and incompetent when faced with their children as many mothers do, should have no hesitation in having their children cared for by women who have anÂ aptitudeÂ for this work and have undergone the necessary training. There is noÂ heaven-sent instinctwhich teaches women the right thing to doÂ byÂ their children, andÂ solicitudeÂ when it goes beyond a point is a camouflage for possessiveness. Many a child is psychologically ruined by ignorant and sentimental handling on the part of its mother. It has always been recognised that fathers cannot be expected to do very much for their chiidren, and yet children are quite as apt to love their fathers as to love their mothers. The lelation of the mother to the child willÂ haveÂ in futureÂ toresemble more and more that which at present the father has, if women' s livesÂ are to beÂ freed from unnecessary slavery and childrenÂ are to be allowed toÂ profit by the scientific knowledge which is accumulating as to the care of their minds and bodies in early years.Â

Re: compensation

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 May 2008 12:28:36 GMT

It's still repayment, payback for whatever it was the parent did.

I couldn't open that page because I didn't have the Japanese language pack and I was unable to find that passage elsewhere in English. He was writing 100 years ago, so I suppose I can't apply today's societal standards of child rearing. It's just a weird way to look at things. In a contract, both parties have to agree. What does the child agree to? Not to being born, not to being the recipient of so much attention - that would be the mother's choice. So how can there be an obligation to repay what they did not negotiate receiving?

Re: compensation

Taka — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:10:08 GMT

It's Bertrand Russell, GG (and Raen).

Check here:

http://russell.cool.ne.jp/beginner/HA24-100.HTM

Getting back to the compensations, how would you explain it in a phrase or a sentence?

Re: compensation

Raen — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:08:09 GMT

I couldn't agree with you more GrammarGeek, it gives me chills to think there's a repayment expected for having parents caring for you............except it'd make more sense if it only limits to emotional demands rather than material compensations as it seems to indicate in the very last part of the sentence:

"..and the unsatisfied parent is likely to be an emotionally greedy parent."

No?

Raen

Re: compensation

Grammar Geek — Wed, 14 May 2008 03:59:06 GMT

I find the content strange.

What obligations can society impose beyond what is reasonable? And how can a parent extract compensation? Parents who "overdo" for their children do so out of their OWN will or internal compulsion, not societal obligation. (Unless perhaps they're talking about parents of severely disabled children who require a very intense level of care? ) If I choose to make my children the center of my universe, how can I possibly require them to repay me for my decisions?

Re: compensation

Raen — Wed, 14 May 2008 03:51:58 GMT

Taka, I find the message of the passage very interesting.

Is it discribing parenthood of particular culture/country? I am very curious.

Raen

Re: compensation

Taka — Wed, 14 May 2008 03:11:37 GMT

GG, what do you mean by 'a strange passage'? Grammatically strange? Such a strange writing style that it sounds like old English? Or the message is strange?

(Thank you for fixing it, GG)

Re: compensation

Grammar Geek — Tue, 13 May 2008 18:45:07 GMT

Such a strange passage! I too interpret the word to be "repayment."

Re: compensation

Taka — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:15:14 GMT

Oh, I fixed the except part right after I posed the message.

You respond really quickly!

And the 'fro' in the original should have been 'for'âdamn, I can't fix it. I fixed it for you - GG

Re: compensation

Taka — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:08:49 GMT

Does your repayment mean 'repaying his/her mother for raising him/her'?

You don't agree with the statement. I see. For your information, here is the entire original text:

Whenever society demands of a mother sacrifices to her child which go beyond reason, the mother, if she is not unusually saintly, will expect from her child compensations exceeding those she has a right to expect. The mother who is conventionally called self-sacrificing is, in a great majority of cases, exceptionally selfish towards her children, for, important as parenthood is as an element in life, it is not satisfying if it is treated as the whole of life, and the unsatisfied parent is likely to be an emotionally greedy parent.

Re: compensation

Marius Hancu — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:06:31 GMT

will expect/accept from

Re: compensation

Old Man Gordon — Tue, 13 May 2008 16:26:03 GMT

I would interpret it as 'repayment'.

except?--Maybe you meant expect.

By the way, I don't agree with this statement at all. Many mothers are loving and self-sacrificing and expect nothing in return for their love, except the love of their child.

compensation

Taka — Tue, 13 May 2008 16:18:54 GMT

ã»Whenever society demands of a mother sacrifices to her child which go beyond reason, the mother will except from the child compensationsÂ exceeding those she has a right to expect.

How would you interpret the 'compensations' above in that context?