ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: sequel to noun?

CalifJim — Thu, 15 May 2008 03:31:15 GMT

Avangi
Hope I'm not compounding a felony, guys.

No! I think he wants examples of a noun that can be used

1. as a countable noun: a different X / different X's.

2. as a noncountable noun: different X

The only one I could think of was the one I showed in my examples on a different behavior and different behavior -- in another post. (Then there's the somewhat lame example with discussion above, but without the word different.)

Can you think of some other examples we could use to illustrate the usage? I'm stuck.

Re: sequel to noun?

Avangi — Thu, 15 May 2008 03:23:25 GMT

Anonymous
We held different discussion on the topic but couldn't reach agreement.

Sorry, I can't get this out of my mind. You wish to stress that the discussion was varied, which you don't accomplish with "We held some discussion." As Jim says, to "hold a discussion" is a definite, complete event in time. To hold a different discussion is another complete event in time. You now have two events. That's countable. "Different discussions." (Hope I'm not compounding a felony, guys.)

Re: sequel to noun?

CalifJim — Thu, 15 May 2008 02:27:21 GMT

You 'hold' an organized event. We held a [conference / birthday party / fund raiser / discussion / ...].

You can have a lot of discussion on a topic, however.

(But to have some discussion is awkward. I wouldn't use it.)

____

With hold a discussion, you have the concrete boundaried instance of the word discussion. You have a specific event with a beginning and ending.

With have a lot of discussion, you have an abstract unboundaried instance of the word discussion. You have a general idea of the interchange of ideas among people -- not an event.

A discussion is bounded by time; discussion is timeless.

Re: sequel to noun?

Avangi — Thu, 15 May 2008 02:04:37 GMT

I think the key is in the word "different," which can be used in at least two ways. "Her approach to the problem was quite different." AND "Different strokes for different folks." Why can't you say, "Different stroke for different folk,"? You could say "I decided to try a different stroke," but it's definitely countable. It's this second usage of "different" that makes it countable. You could not say, "I decided to try some different stroke." It would have to be plural. "I decided to try some different strokes."

You could say, "I decided to try some different paint, or some different makeup. This would be uncountable. If we say "I decided to try some different paints," (I'm an artist) I mean different from the ones I was using before, not different from each other.

In your "example to compare," you use "some/a lot of" which are used to describe both/either countables or uncountables. Different, in the original sentence, is only used for countables.

I admit it does seem complicated, and my explanation is not as clear as I'd like it to be. "Strokes" is a bad example, because it's only countable.

- A.

sequel to noun?

Anonymous — Thu, 15 May 2008 01:14:03 GMT

Hi,

I think Mr. M said something to the effect that for the kind of sentence below, the combination of 'held' and 'different' makes the sentence countable nad the sentence below is not OK.

We held different discussion on the topic but couldn't reach agreement.

Has to be:

We held different discussions on the topic but couldn't reach agreeement.

Compare to this:

If 'held' and 'different' can cause a difference for the previous sentence, then, can the words 'had' (or possibly 'held' too if it still makes sense) and 'some' or 'a lot of' here can cause the same and make this sentence not OK? I think the sentence below is OK -- just a matter of conceptual difference.

We had (or held??) some/a lot of discussion on the topic but couldn't reach agreement.

Why does no. 2 makes a good sentence, which I think it is, and no.1 doesn't?