ESL General English Grammar Questions

Re: the tense of two sentences

New2grammar — Tue, 20 May 2008 11:39:27 GMT

CJ, Your explanations always hit the spot. (Ummm... I hope this expression is not vulgar)

Thanks!

Re: the tense of two sentences

CalifJim — Tue, 20 May 2008 01:45:23 GMT

New2grammar
1. Can I change 'when' to 'that' as suggested by you before the context was given?
2. Can I change to past tense "She felt..." since the time shift has occurred, there's no need to shift in time again.

1. Yes, but then you should probably change so to very because so ... sets up reader expectation for another clause beginning with that ...

She had been very happy that Dahu chose her.

She had been so happy that Dahu chose her ------ that she jumped up and kissed him. (Ignore the first that. It's not part of the so ... that ... structure.)

Compare:

He was so tall that he had to stoop to enter the room.

2. There's no need to shift again; that's true, although this is a matter of opinion. Most authors will keep reminding the reader of the intended position in time with an occasional past perfect. Theoretically, even those subordinate clauses would be in the past perfect, because they happened during the same time period as the main clauses, thus:

She had been so happy when Dahu had chosen her as the future mother of his children. He was the best toolmaker in the group and it was a great honour to be chosen. She had felt so proud as the group had shouted loudly to applaud his choice.

Writers tread a fine line between overusing and underusing the past perfect. Typically, they try to use it as little as possible, but not so little that it confuses the reader about the order of events in time. These are matters of style more than of grammar.

Re: the tense of two sentences

qingqing — Tue, 20 May 2008 01:22:18 GMT

Thanks a lot, CJ.

Re: the tense of two sentences

New2grammar — Mon, 19 May 2008 10:51:56 GMT

CJ,
I have two small questions.
1. Can I change 'when' to 'that' as suggested by you before the context was given?

2. Can I change to past tense "She felt..." since the time shift has occurred, there's no need to shift in time again.

She had been so happy that Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children. He was the best toolmaker in the group and it was a great honour to be chosen. She ~~had~~ felt so proud as the group shouted loudly to applaud his choice

Thanks in advance!

Re: the tense of two sentences

CalifJim — Mon, 19 May 2008 04:03:05 GMT

I'm still confused about it. I want to know if there's anything wrong with the tense underlined. If not, how to understand it. According to the context, I think the sentences should be "She was so happy when..." and "She felt so proud as..." Am I right?

qingqing
... It was the custom of family groups to separate and then gather again at different sites for reunions as they followed the animal herds across the grasslands. If only it could be just like last year! Then She had been so happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children. He was the best toolmaker in the group and it was a great honour to be chosen. She had felt so proud as the group shouted loudly to applaud his choice. If only she had looked ahead and planned better!

There's nothing wrong with the underlined words. They relate reactions which happened before the time of the main focus of the narrative.

Here's the order of events and reactions.

Background information about the family groups. <<<

It was the custom ... to separate and then gather again. <<< [This continued over a long time in the past.]

_______ Change of narrative focus ________

Background information about Dahu. >>>

He was the best tool maker. (So) it was (considered) an honor to be chosen by Dahu. >>>

Events. Last year. >>>

Dahu chose her. The group applauded his choice. >>>

Her reaction to the events at the time of the events. >>>

She became happy (because Dahu chose her). She felt proud (because the group applauded). >>>

Background information about her behavior at the time of the events. >>>

She did not look ahead. She did not plan well. >>>

Her reaction now. <<<

She wants everything to be as it was last year. <<<

She wishes that she could go back and do things differently

-- for example, look ahead and plan better. <<<

<<< shows the main narrative focus.

>>> shows secondary focus - events and reactions not within the main narrative focus.

>>> additional information - possibly tertiary focus

Others may have different interpretations.

Re: the tense of two sentences

qingqing — Mon, 19 May 2008 01:19:23 GMT

I'm still confused about it. I want to know if there's anything wrong with the tense underlined. If not, how to understand it. According to the context, I think the sentences should be "She was so happy when..." and "She felt so proud as..." Am I right?

Re: the tense of two sentences

CalifJim — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:33:32 GMT

qingqing
... Lala quickly turned for home with her collection of nuts and fruit. It was the custom of family groups to separate and then gather again at different sites for reunions as they followed the animal herds across the grasslands. If only it could be just like last year! Then She had been so happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children. He was the best toolmaker in the group and it was a great honour to be chosen. She had felt so proud as the group shouted loudly to applaud his choice. If only ...

The context changes things. The past perfect shows that the events described happened before the main time of the story.

See Re: Past / Past perfect.

See Re: Past perfect.

Re: the tense of two sentences

CalifJim — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:25:53 GMT

qingqing
She had been so happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children.

She was happy (already). And then Dahu chose her. Is that really what you wanted to say? I think you want:

She was very happy that Dahu chose her.

Or, better, Dahu made her very happy when he chose her as ...

____

And the next sentence:

She felt so proud as the group shouted ... (not "was felt"; not "pround")

Re: the tense of two sentences

qingqing — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:23:51 GMT

Here is the paragraph,

The feast: 18,000 BC
Worried about the preparation for her feast, Lala quickly turned for home with her collection of nuts and fruit. It was the custom of family groups to separate and then gather again at different sites for reunions as they followed the animal herds across the grasslands. If only it could be just like last year! Then She had been so happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children. He was the best toolmaker in the group and it was a great honour to be chosen. She had felt so proud as the group shouted loudly to applaud his choice. If only she had looked ahead and planned better! ...

Re: the tense of two sentences

qingqing — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:12:54 GMT

I'm still confused as to"She had become very happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children." Which action happened first, "had become" or "chose"?

Re: the tense of two sentences

26TMNTJG2PG — Fri, 16 May 2008 10:05:43 GMT

She had become very happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children.

She felt very pround as the group shouted loudly to applaud his choice.

the tense of two sentences

qingqing — Fri, 16 May 2008 09:58:25 GMT

How to understand the tense of the following two sentences:

She had been so happy when Dahu chose her as the future mother of his children.

She had felt so pround as the group shouted loudly to applaud his choice.

What about 'She was so happy when ..." and "She was felt...as..."? (According to the sequence of time, Dahu first chose her and then she was happy.)